99 in the SB. I raise, check-call, check-fold.

[bisonbison]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero folds...

[SnakeRat]

I would play the same.

[Sarge85]

Hmmm -

Interesting. I think the SB raise with 99 is a bit unorothodx. - at least for me it would be. I see the reasoning though so I think it's neutral EV just a bit unorthodox.

*edit - I'm guessing the reasoning is this - obviously if you hit your set your going to hit a big payoff, cause people are tied to a big pot. A set of 9's is probably the last thing they'd suspect. Also, there are probably enough flops that could land, that you may be able to CR if your 9's happen to be an overpair, and you have an aggressive LP bettor so as to protect your hand.

The flop call, is fine i think based on where the bet came from, because if the nine does fall you look to be primed for a CR.

How'd I do.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[joker122]

I don't like the flop call. The implied odds aren't there for peeling one off. Also, spiking a 9 makes KT a straight and gives any singleton Ks or Ts a redraw.

[PokeHer]

I am not sure I like the PF raise. with 5 people already in plus the BB to act, you can be fairly certain that most of them will call the raise, especially on party. Now, there are 14 SB in the pot instead of 7 SB.

If you raise PF and do not flop the set, you pretty much know you cannot have the best hand in a 7-way pot with 99 and that it is unlikely that you will get everyone to fold on the flop or later since the pot has been built-up so much already. By not raising PF, you save yourself a bet on a hand that will likely only hold up when you flop trips.

If you flop a set, and there are 14 SB in the pot, it may be correct for some hands like gutshots to draw out on you, and even a check-raise may not get them to fold. But if you do not raise PF, with just 7 SB in the pot, a check-raise will have a much better chance of getting those draws to go away.


I am a new poster here and somewhat new to limit hold'em, so any feedback on my post would be awesome, especially from you carpel-tunnelers!

[bisonbison]

I am not sure I like the PF raise. with 5 people already in plus the BB to act, you can be fairly certain that most of them will call the raise, especially on party. Now, there are 14 SB in the pot instead of 7 SB.

Poke, I don't want anybody to fold preflop. I'm raising for value.


If you raise PF and do not flop the set, you pretty much know you cannot have the best hand in a 7-way pot with 99 and that it is unlikely that you will get everyone to fold on the flop or later since the pot has been built-up so much already. By not raising PF, you save yourself a bet on a hand that will likely only hold up when you flop trips.

This isn't true. If I flop an overpair, I will probably have the best hand, and if only one overcard comes, the odds remain pretty good that I'll be in the lead.

If you flop a set, and there are 14 SB in the pot, it may be correct for some hands like gutshots to draw out on you, and even a check-raise may not get them to fold. But if you do not raise PF, with just 7 SB in the pot, a check-raise will have a much better chance of getting those draws to go away.

Ugh. When I have top set (or any set) I have huge pot equity. Huge. Everyone is welcome to try suck out on me. Everyone.

[SnakeRat]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. When I have top set (or any set) I have huge pot equity. Huge. Everyone is welcome to try suck out on me. Everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially the chasers who are drawing near dead, which many of them will be in a pot this big.

[Jonny Melon]

Bison:
Can you help me understand the flop call? You have no strong backdoor draws, there's almost no chance you have the best hand here, and spiking a set leaves you open to very probable straight redraws. I know the pot is big, but this looks like a flop laydown.

Jon

[turnipmonster]

what I want to know is how much action (in big bets) you were anticipating getting if you suck out on the turn. that's really what makes this a call vs. fold situation.

--turnipmonster

[bisonbison]

Can you help me understand the flop call?

Well, the flop call was why I posted. My thinking was: I have a backdoor straight draw, and if I spike a set, then sure I might lose, but I may also win a ton.

I think the flop check/call's the only debatable thing in the hand, and if I could explain it better then I probably would be able to make up my mind on it one way or the other.

[bisonbison]

5 players remaining, UTG bettor? Probably 4 or 6 on the turn + 1-3 on the river.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you help me understand the flop call?

Well, the flop call was why I posted. My thinking was: I have a backdoor straight draw, and if I spike a set, then sure I might lose, but I may also win a ton.

I think the flop check/call's the only debatable thing in the hand, and if I could explain it better then I probably would be able to make up my mind on it one way or the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's fine (although even with a T on the turn your straight draw is more like a gutshot, since a K on the river means you'll lose to any A).

Next hand.

[Alexthegreat]

I like the preflop raise a ton....I don't have any problems with taking a card off on the flop....it's shaping up to be a large pot, and I think if you spike a 9 you are gonna be ahead way more times than you are gonna be behind...for one small bet on the flop, with a pot this big, given your position....i'm calling every time

[Navers]

you're somewhere in the ballpark of 11:1 to make the set by the river. Assuming you only had that flop bet to call it would be worth it, but since you have to pay off the bigger turn bet if you don't make it on the flop, I don't think the effective odds say you can call.

How big do you estimate your implied odds to be?

[xxxxx]

If there was only one overcard on the flop, you might be in the lead but you are unlikely to stay in the lead. You are giving up huge reverse implied odds. See SSH p. 33-34.
I don't have a problem with your actual actions as the cards actually fell.

[TheHip41]

Hey Bison,

This is an area I've had a problem with over the last few months. 77-99 in the SB or BB after a billion limpers. What would happen to me is, I'd raise 88 from the BB after 5 player complete, they would all call. Flop would be QJ4. Now I'd check, and call a bet. If I spike an 8, then great, just have to fade the straight.

The way I play this now, and I'd like comments as well, is to just check, or complete the SB with 99-22. If you hit a set, c/r, if you miss, you aren't as tied to the hand because you didn't raise preflop.

If you are the type of player that can raise preflop, then check/fold a bad flop, then raising seems like a good play. I've found that raising the flop might lead to chasing.

Derek

[Barry]

There are 17 SB in the pot when it's back to you and at least 3 opponents. Figuring your implied odds, plus you back door str8 draw, offset by spiking your 9 might give someone a str8, it's pretty close.

At the table, in the heat of battle, when it's pretty close I lean towards calling.

[Bob T.]

Looks reasonable.