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Vince Lepore
08-30-2004, 06:41 PM
A professional poker player, one that earns their living playing poker, is not necessarily an expert poker player. It is not necessary to be an expert player to have a positive expectation. In fact a person that has rudementary understandng of how to play could have a positive expectation. Suppose for example someone was fortunate enough to be invited to play in a nitely poker game with a Teaxs billionaire that loved to play poker and was willing to play for stakes amenable to that someone. Now suppose the Texas Billionaire played only a little better than Chuck. Chuck is my ex-wifes ex-ex-husband. Chuck is a good buddy of mine and has been for over 20 years, well before he married and divorced my ex. But Chuck is also the worst poker player that has ever lived. I believe this as I believe the sun wil rise tomorrow morning. Chuck coined the phrase "see you at the river". This is not so bad in Chuck's case because he doesn't understand what he has in his hand and he has to wait until the river for someone to explain it to him. Besides by playing every hand all the way he never throws away a winner. This was something he was quick to point out to me when I asked about his strategy. Anyway let's just say that the Texas Billionaire played a little better than Chuck. Now suppose our fortunate someone played non expert poker like ...let's say Barry Tannebaum or Jim Brier or ---just a joke guys. Let's say "fortunate someone" played well enough to be fairly sure when his hand was beat and laid it down correctly most of the time. Well this minor disparagy between the strategy of the Texas Billionaire and fortunate someone would result in a positive expectation for MR. Fortuante. Why? Because he would lose less to Texas then Texas would lose to him, resulting in a positive expectation for a non expert.

Now if you think this is an extreme example, again I, as I did in my first Observation point you in the direction of the 15-30 Holdem games on Partypoker. I believe that 60 to 90 minutes of careful observation will go a long way in proving my point to you.

Point? Do I have a point? Oh yeah, here it is, be careful who you listen too when seeking advice. Winning players are not necessarily experts. Of course the opposite is not true. So find an expert and listen to what he has to say. You might learn something. I know that I did te first time I picked up a twoplustwo publication. (This is not an advertisement).

Vince

BarronVangorToth
08-30-2004, 06:46 PM
I'll agree with you 100% that not all winning players are expert players. I'm a winning player and I believe I'm not particularly that good at poker. Likewise, I believe that most people are bad at poker and most people that win are bad.

HOWEVER, by the definition of "expert poker player," I would be shocked if anyone garnered that title realistically and was a losing player. Losing players are bad, a lot of winning players are bad, but I don't believe expert players are losing players.

You lost me on that one.

However, absolutely, many people are bad that don't even realize it. When I rack up and have X big bet profit from a session, it's not even an issue of the big bets I'm up, it's the fact that I know I threw away # big bets here, # big bets there, etc etc.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

Lafortezza
08-30-2004, 06:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Winning players are not necessarily experts. Of course the opposite is not true. Vince

[/ QUOTE ]Its like that "Better to be lucky than good" phrase...

Iceman
08-30-2004, 07:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, by the definition of "expert poker player," I would be shocked if anyone garnered that title realistically and was a losing player. Losing players are bad, a lot of winning players are bad, but I don't believe expert players are losing players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many great poker players lose money in the long-run, by often playing in games that are too tough even for them, or if they have poor bankroll management. If they played within their bankrolls and within their skills and exercised good game selection, they'd almost certainly be ahead in the long-run.

Kurn, son of Mogh
08-30-2004, 09:22 PM
Game selection. Game selection. Game selection.

Vince Lepore
08-31-2004, 01:33 PM
O.K. i meant to say that expert poker players are winning players and have a positive ev. By definition this has to be true.

Vince

Vince Lepore
08-31-2004, 01:35 PM
No what it means is that experts are winning players.

Vince

Bez
08-31-2004, 11:27 PM
Should game selection be considered when classifying how good a player is? Does it make one a better player if one is more adept at game selection?

Patriarch
09-01-2004, 10:45 AM
If all experts are winners, but not all winners are experts, are all bad players losers, and are all losers bad players?

Kaz The Original
09-01-2004, 01:54 PM
ahhh....
If all fooks are gumples... and all gumples are fogglins... are all fooks fogglins????

AHHHHHHHHHHHh

Abe
09-01-2004, 06:20 PM
Another "Vince" post, huh? Hmmmm- we used to have a guy named Vince post here back in 1998 and 1999.

Are you an imposter? Take this quiz:

1. What did Vince's black hat say - on the front AND on the back?

2. What color was the VW bus?

3. Is bacarrat beatable?

4. Which LV casino barred Vince for card counting at 21?

5. What did Sklansky call "Vince's Bad Concept" ?


Welcome back, buddy.

xrongor
09-02-2004, 03:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Game selection. Game selection. Game selection

[/ QUOTE ]

amen.

randy