how to play ak when you're close to the money?

[midoleni]

I'm wondering if I made a mistake here. 400+ entrants, $100 buy in. Top 50 places starts getting payed $250 or so, with the real money reserved for the top 10. There's 68 entrants left, and I'm doing fine with my midsized stack. I get dealt akos in mid position. It's checked around to me, and I go all in, with a chip leader still to act. Would you have done the same?

[NUReedy]

No.

Describe how many BB you had, ie what the blinds are, what you chip stack is, etc. before one can even begin to answer this question.

[midoleni]

The blinds were at 300-600. I had $6900, which was the median among 68 players. The table chip leader had around $22,000.
Sorry about leaving that out earlier.

[Indiana]

This has actually been my problem for some time. I am really good at getting into the money but not making the final table...My feeling is that you cannot fold AK at this point in the tourney, it just doesn't come often enough to drop it and wait around for another good hand...I would pop it for around 1800-2200 and hope everybody folds....If they do then great, otherwise you have to use what you know about the players at your table to make a decision...If you get reraised by a maniac, put it all in, if by a tight and careful player, you might want to lay it down...

Any comments?

Indiana

[Schmed]

I don't know what anyone else has said but at that point if you have a mid sized stack you shouldn't push. Raise it up 3x the bb and you can get off of it if someone with a bigger stack pushes on you.

One thing you have to remember is the big stacks don't want to be crippled, or even hurt, on a bluff and they'll give you, (a guy with a mid sized stack), credit for a real hand. Now the other mid sized guys are going to be tricky to play against but at least you would still have life.

A lot of this depends on your stack relative to the people at your table and your stack as compared to the rest of the people in the tourny. If you look around, (online it's so easy to do), and see a large number of people with less chips than you you really don't want to put all of your chips in play with AKo

TJ doesnt call that hand walking back to Houston for nothing.

[The4thFilm]

I think you could take the blinds for a much smaller raise, and only things that can beat you will call the all in.

[Schmed]

you have got to be able to get off of that hand. DS says that hand likes to be all in...and yeah...it's easier to play that way but often winning isn't easy.

In this scenario there is no way I push all in. You raise it up 3xbb and get off of it if someone who can bust you pushes. If you don't flop and someone who can bust you puts in a pot sized bet get off of it. If it checks to you then it's on you. I've checked, I've bet at least the pot, I would not put all my chips at risk here. You can make a lot of money in these scenarios too. A guy who doesn't have a whole lot of chips may decide it's time to make a move and it's an easy call.

[Paul2432]

I'll offer a dissenting opinion. I think all-in is the only play to make here. First consider that if you raise to 1800 and a LP player re-raises all-in you will be getting 1.88:1 odds. You would have a huge overlay versus any hand except AA or KK which are not very likely considering you hold AK. At this stage, opponents will move-in with a variety of hands worse than AA or KK especially if they think you will fold to a re-raise. On average you have to call. Furthermore, if you do raise and then fold, your ability to steal the blinds will be compromised. Players will re-raise you knowing you will fold all but the best hands.

Also consider the case where you raise and get called and miss the flop which will happen about 2/3 of the time. Now you have a guess as to what to do. Anyone who says they can reliably figure out what to do in this situation is kidding themselves, especially if they act first.

In general, if I have 10x the BB or less my only play is all-in or fold (or check if I'm the BB and someone just calls).

Paul

[midoleni]

What if I had raised 3X the blinds ($1800) and was called by the lp. Flop is then rags. What should I do then?

[Schmed]

you are also behind any pair You're almost dead to AA, and way behind KK. It's more likely the guy pushing in to you has a pair. Now if you hit, (1/3rd of the time), you're golden but the other times it's a hard bet to call allin.

Everything I read and everything I have even seen is that the best players are able to get rid of AKo and the worst players bust with it.

[midoleni]

Does that mean I shouldn't have even entered with it? Again, if I had 3 bet instead of raising all in, I would have greatly crippled my stack.

[RobGW]

I don't think you are doing fine with only 10x the BB. I would push here everytime. It is highly unlikely you will run into AA or KK. If it happens it happens. If someone calls with a smaller pair then its a coin flip and you have all 5 cards to catch your AK. You may even catch someone who thinks AQ is good. They would be risking a lot to call though. On the bubble, people usually tighten up considerably. So you will most likely just win the blinds.

[Jdanz]

I don't doubt that you know far more about these tourneys then i do, but isn't it a cardnal rule not to put thirty percent of your stack out there pre-flop? you can't fold to an all in from anyone can you? are you saying it's more +EV to try to get someone to play back at you? because the only other reason would be if you could fold if pushed all in, if you can explain how a fold there can be less -EV then a call with almost 2-1 odds and AK.

-JDanz

[fnurt]

With 11 times the BB I push this all day long. Putting in 3xBB and folding to a reraise because you are terrified of being a 55-45 underdog (when the pot is offering you a huge overlay to call) is scared poker. With a big stack you can be conservative; you are very far from having a big stack here.

Don't let some guy with 33 put you to a decision for all your chips. Make him decide if he really wants to risk that much money on the parlay of (1) you having overcards rather than a higher pair; and (2) him winning the coinflip.

Where are the forum regulars to back me up on this?

[BobboFitos]

What if I had raised 3X the blinds ($1800) and was called by the lp. Flop is then rags. What should I do then?

Very easy. ARR IN BABY.

Because... You probably have the best hand anyways. Rags dont rate to help him.
He may fold a small pair, as well, if he put you on an overpair and wanted to set.

And if he does call, you have 6 outs twice over.

This late, with that many chips in the pot, you play AK to the river regardless if you pair.

[davidross]

Without meaning to be patronizing, what is your goal?

If making the money is important to you, don't put your stack at risk here. If I was 15 from the money at the WSOP and 15K or 20K was at risk, and I could fold in, I think I might fold this, so I can understand that thinking.

If you want to win this tournament though you can't pass this up. I would probably make a 3 times raise and call any re-raise, but pushing all-in is fine too.

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
What if I had raised 3X the blinds ($1800) and was called by the lp. Flop is then rags. What should I do then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea. That is why I said you should go all-in.

Paul

[woodguy]

Not sure if I'm regular enough, but I agree with fnurt, good place to push.

You have to play this hand, you have damn near 10bb's and your hand is strong, but not strong enough to trap or handle a PF call with a ragged flop.

regards,
woodguy

[Schmed]

in this case it was less than 30% of his stack...he had 6800, 6900?? and if he raises it to 1800....26%....it's close...(it's certainly -ev to bust out 15 places from a cash)....now someone pushes on you and you're getting 2-1 which is probably an even money prop...then there is the outside chance of AA, KK....call in a cash game but when you're going to bust out of the tourny or double up with like 15 people until the money and the real cash...not the Sklansky dollars....you have got to be able to get off of that hand.

A great example of this was when Scott Fishman folded to Doyle's all in C/R. Fishman had the AK, Doyle 77 and had limped and busted someone with QQ earlier. I thought it was a great lay down by Fishman. He was getting at least 2-1 on his money but he figured he could make his chips up somewhere else why risk all of them here against a guy with a made hand. Why gamble??? If you heard him he said something like "I'm not going to gamble with ya"....he knew Doyle had at least a pair and was really afraid of the possibility of AA or KK...

TJ has a great take on AK in his book. I always think that AK is a hand great players can get away from and bad/good players bust with.

[Schmed]

I understand your point about "what is your goal" and if your goal is winning the tourny you need chips to do it but don't your goals change in tourny's all the time. You're short and you're close to the money with a slightly below avg stack. My goal is to cash. If you're fat stacked and you're close to the money, my goal is to bust short stacked players with AK/AQ/AJ/A10 and build my stack even more.

I understand what you're saying about needing to build your stack to win but don't your goals constantly change in a tourny?? You have to cash before you can win.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[La Brujita]

Fnurt I too push this in a split second, it is an auto push for me.

It can get frustrating to lose when someone turns over a pair but you are going to steal the blinds a huge percentage of the time.

In fact isn't AQ an auto push here as well?

The 10xbb rule is not some magic formula in the following sense. It's not like with 11x bb you are in great shape and nine you are dead. The reason for pushing has a lot to do with the price you are given when it is reraised to you, AK as said stacks up well against any hand but two hands, and you have two of the eight cards needed to make those hands.

The unfortunate truth is as McEvoy and company have pointed out is there are many times you will just have your tournament depend upon AK.

[Schmed]

not really....you would have had 5k chips, with 15 places to go until you cash.

The only reason I think I go all in here is to double up. I want the call and I want him to have AQ. If he has a pair okay....lets gamble and I hope to double up to so I can put myself in a better position to win the entire thing. And I do not go all in here.

Losing the 1800 chips hurts. No doubt. How much does it hurts you relative to the other short stack is another question I would want to have at least an idea of before I even made the raise. Say out of the 68 20 had less than 4k chips, well it's an easy hand to get away from. You're in the running with you having more chips than approx 1/3rd of the people in the tourny. With 5k chips you still have enough to double up when you catch 1010 the next hand or force blinds out when you catch AK again. If you do double up with your 5k you put yourself in the running. Watch a guy like Dan Harrington play. He was SS the entire WSOP but made the final table. I can't wait to read that book...

[ThingDo]

Quote:
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What if I had raised 3X the blinds ($1800) and was called by the lp. Flop is then rags. What should I do then?


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I have no idea. That is why I said you should go all-in.



EXACTLY. Sorry If I did the quote thing wrong, but this is just another reason that this is a push rather than a raise I believe. I push here w/ out question. Really, you are going to win the blinds a very large % of the time here. If you run into AA or KK, sucks you lost. EVEN HANDS THAT YOU BEAT WILL CALL YOU HERE SOME OF THE TIME!!! I don't think there is any other way to play the hand

[ohkanada]

Push, push, push.

With 11xbb it is close to a standard raise or a push. Folding would be horrible.

Ken

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll offer a dissenting opinion. I think all-in is the only play to make here. First consider that if you raise to 1800 and a LP player re-raises all-in you will be getting 1.88:1 odds. You would have a huge overlay versus any hand except AA or KK which are not very likely considering you hold AK. At this stage, opponents will move-in with a variety of hands worse than AA or KK especially if they think you will fold to a re-raise. On average you have to call. Furthermore, if you do raise and then fold, your ability to steal the blinds will be compromised. Players will re-raise you knowing you will fold all but the best hands.

Also consider the case where you raise and get called and miss the flop which will happen about 2/3 of the time. Now you have a guess as to what to do. Anyone who says they can reliably figure out what to do in this situation is kidding themselves, especially if they act first.

In general, if I have 10x the BB or less my only play is all-in or fold (or check if I'm the BB and someone just calls).

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

How about raise it about 3x bb and then call an all in. You don't think AQ would push if you raised it 3x the bb. AQ will definitely fold if you push all in, but if you raise 3x then you might get them to commit and you just doubled up. Or something like a medium pair will push and you call being only a slight dog. You will have to win some of those situations to get deep into the money, so this is a good situation. What is the point of raising so much that you will only get called by hands that beat you. Winning one blind at a time isn't a very good strategy for winning tournaments.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Without meaning to be patronizing, what is your goal?

If making the money is important to you, don't put your stack at risk here. If I was 15 from the money at the WSOP and 15K or 20K was at risk, and I could fold in, I think I might fold this, so I can understand that thinking.

If you want to win this tournament though you can't pass this up. I would probably make a 3 times raise and call any re-raise, but pushing all-in is fine too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have read this before posting. Well said DR.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
How about raise it about 3x bb and then call an all in. You don't think AQ would push if you raised it 3x the bb. AQ will definitely fold if you push all in, but if you raise 3x then you might get them to commit and you just doubled up. Or something like a medium pair will push and you call being only a slight dog. You will have to win some of those situations to get deep into the money, so this is a good situation. What is the point of raising so much that you will only get called by hands that beat you. Winning one blind at a time isn't a very good strategy for winning tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think, first of all, you would almost always prefer to win the blinds rather than be on the bad side of a 55-45 coinflip for all your chips. That's obvious both in chip EV and cash EV terms.

I also think it's an overstatement that only hands which beat you will call. I mean, we've all gotten called by 66 in this situation and lost; the thing is, you want to at least force that 66 guy to make a tough decision, rather than let him think he has folding equity if he pushes. As for AA and KK, the chance of someone holding those hands is so small when you have AK that you just can't worry about it.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
A great example of this was when Scott Fishman folded to Doyle's all in C/R. Fishman had the AK, Doyle 77 and had limped and busted someone with QQ earlier. I thought it was a great lay down by Fishman. He was getting at least 2-1 on his money but he figured he could make his chips up somewhere else why risk all of them here against a guy with a made hand. Why gamble??? If you heard him he said something like "I'm not going to gamble with ya"....he knew Doyle had at least a pair and was really afraid of the possibility of AA or KK...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the situations are close. This situation has much smaller stacks and the play is different.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise it up 3x the bb and you can get off of it if someone with a bigger stack pushes on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is awful advice. With a stack of 11x BB, you should almost never be folding AK. If you raise to 3x BB, and someone reraises for any amount, you should go all-in.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think, first of all, you would almost always prefer to win the blinds rather than be on the bad side of a 55-45 coinflip for all your chips. That's obvious both in chip EV and cash EV terms.

I also think it's an overstatement that only hands which beat you will call. I mean, we've all gotten called by 66 in this situation and lost; the thing is, you want to at least force that 66 guy to make a tough decision, rather than let him think he has folding equity if he pushes. As for AA and KK, the chance of someone holding those hands is so small when you have AK that you just can't worry about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing in when you have 11x bb is kind of ridiculous. What happens if you have AJ in the same situation. You shouldn't be folding it, but you don't want to put your whole tournament at risk on it. If you raise AK or AJ to 2.5-3x bb and then see what the rest of the action at the table is then it could make your situation a lot easier. If I raise AJ to 2.75bb and a small stack moves in for like 6x bb, I would call it. The same with small pairs, why risk your tournament by going all in. Put out a normal raise and see what the action is.
You may get called and then win on the flop or turn with a bet. 11x bb is a decent stack to play with other than just all in.

[DonT77]

I completely agree.

[Schmed]

It was general advice really. There are situations there where I push and situations where I 3x it and fold to an all in reraise from someone that can bust me.

The point being you have to be able to get off of that hand. You don't call all in reraises all the time with AK.

My play here is to raise it 3x and probably fold to an all in reraise. It gives me the best chance to cash. If I think the big stack is pushing around with out a legit hand I call no doubt. A legit player that I know isn't reraising all in unless he's ahead I lay it down.

Don't you think where you're at in the tourny with respect to other players? If you can get away with folding there and still have a similar stack if not better than say 1/3rd of the field then isn't folding to an all in reraise better??

I know there are times where you either have to piss or get off the pot so to speak and of course you're going to have to win some coin flips but 15 off of the money isn't when I want to be behind going in to that flip of the coin.

[Schmed]

I don't know what Fishman's stack was at the time relative to Doyles. I do know that Fishman didn't have all that many chips relative to Doyle and he did bust out that day to Doyle.

It may not be the exact same situation but it's an example of how a good player got off of AK when the pot was offering him appropriate odds to call.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think, first of all, you would almost always prefer to win the blinds rather than be on the bad side of a 55-45 coinflip for all your chips. That's obvious both in chip EV and cash EV terms.

I also think it's an overstatement that only hands which beat you will call. I mean, we've all gotten called by 66 in this situation and lost; the thing is, you want to at least force that 66 guy to make a tough decision, rather than let him think he has folding equity if he pushes. As for AA and KK, the chance of someone holding those hands is so small when you have AK that you just can't worry about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing in when you have 11x bb is kind of ridiculous. What happens if you have AJ in the same situation. You shouldn't be folding it, but you don't want to put your whole tournament at risk on it. If you raise AK or AJ to 2.5-3x bb and then see what the rest of the action at the table is then it could make your situation a lot easier. If I raise AJ to 2.75bb and a small stack moves in for like 6x bb, I would call it. The same with small pairs, why risk your tournament by going all in. Put out a normal raise and see what the action is.
You may get called and then win on the flop or turn with a bet. 11x bb is a decent stack to play with other than just all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make some very good points, but those are different hands. AJ is a much weaker hand to push with than AK. With something like 6xBB, I would still push with AJ and hope I'm lucky enough to not be up against a bigger hand, and with deep stacks, I'd raise AJ from MP and hope to win the blinds. But there is a middle ground where I would simply pass on AJ altogether, and I think 11xBB is in that range. Be that as it may, you really can't compare AK to AJ!

[davidross]

I guess goals can change during a tournament, and this is what I meant when I said I don't mean to be patronizing, because the money means different things to different people. If I was a college student with a bankroll under $1,000, then cashing and making $250 guaranteed means a lot to me. But when I play one of these tournaments I am thinking strictly about the final table. I won't pass up even a slight edge to try and cash and double my entry fee (again, at the WSOP I would because 10K is very significant to me).

So I don't think my goals do change during the tournament. If I was down to 100 chips with next to zero chance of coming back I might just fold to the blinds hoping someone else bubbled, but other than that, I'm trying to get a playable stack for the post-bubble period.

Tactics and strategy change, but not my goals. I will play quite a bit looser approaching the money, and quite a bit tighter right after the money.

[Schmed]

First of all I think this has been a pretty good discussion about a situation we all find ourself in.

One thing I'm constantly impressed by is how really good players can get away from AK and how AVG/good/bad players bust with it.

Personally my goals are to cash, make the final 20, final table, final 5, win the thing....never have closed the deal but I've been pretty close a number of times. Then again I spent the past 6 months playing tons of ring and less tourny...now I'm back playing some tournys.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif When I'm that close to cashing and I'm a lil short I really want to cash. Well at his point I think I'd really be goaling for the top 20. Usually I would have built up a nice stack by then....if I'm there... /images/graemlins/smile.gif... but when I'm close like that and my chips are low my goals have gone from final table to top 20. ...then again I'm only a double up away from goals changing to final table again.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks again.

[BobboFitos]

Funny enough, later that day Fischman DID bust out with AK, this time to doyle's KK.

I think people have overstated the importance of folding AK when you think it's a coin flip... Especially when there is dead money in the pot.

Sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand, and you can do alot worse than AK. ARR IN

[Deelah]

I´m with you Fnurt - easy push! Raising 3XBB with the plan to fold to a re-raise is insane. You will not get another hand like this before you´re out.. Just shove it in!

[AceKQJT]

I think If I were in a live tournament and had a good line on most of my opponents yet to act, I would make a 3x raise. Online, I would go ahead and push. I have been called too many times by exactly the kind of hands I want calling (AQ, AJ, Axs). I'm not far enough behind QQ-22 to shun their call, either (and they very well may call).

Let me clarify by saying that I'd just as soon take down the blinds as see a flop...Hence the push. I do not agree, however, that only hands that are beating you will call.

If you choose to make a 3x raise, getting away from your hand to a re-raise would take an extremely good read. You couldn't make that accurate a read online. If you had a much larger stack (say 15K - 20K), I think getting away from this would be very easy...of course, I would be 3x raising with much worse than this anyway, so no big deal.

1. Push
2. David Ross' line (3x...call any re-raise)
3. Fold, turn off the computer, and go drink myself stupid for being such a sissy.

--Casey