Marginal hand... hit the flop... marginally

[SpiderMnkE]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($22.55)
SB ($6.45)
BB ($11.85)
UTG ($17.75)
MP ($33.65)
Hero ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.25) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets $0.5</font>, UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50.

Turn: ($4.25) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets $0.5</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to $7.5</font>, MP folds, Hero..
.
Final Pot: $16.25
<font color="green">Main Pot: $12.75, won by BB.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $3.50, returned to BB.</font>

[Wayfare]

I usually just call and see what he does on the river.

Your hand can't stand any heat, so why raise? If you are good you are good.

[DrPublo]

If you just call you're facing another big bet on the river, which you can't call.

If you can't raise here, you can't win.

Fold.

The Doc

[SpiderMnkE]

I raised because the .50 bet is most often a draw here. These players love to bet .50 with a draw, because most people don't raise them... it's baffling how often this play works for them vs someone with top pair.

I decided to keep the pot small until the turn to dodge the flush and charge them with just one more card to come... while also keeping the pot relatively small.

I felt like I was ahead... and if he had just called my raise.. I'd still feel ahead. I haven't been raised in this spot before... not that I've been here all that often.

[Wayfare]

If you call you know you are facing a "big" bet on the river? I don't think a .5 bet necessarily means its a big hand. I would call down.

[DrPublo]

Ok, so you thought he was on a draw...not a terrible guess (and it ws mostly a guess, right?) What did you expect to accomplish with the raise?

1. If he's on a draw, he folds.
2. If he's got a mediocre ace, he calls and probably checks to you on the river.
3. If he's got you beat, he reraises.

Looks like you found out your answer. Fold without a second thought.

The Doc

PS Just checked the stack sizes, he raised to $7 with like $3 behind. No one does this unless they want to get called. He's trying to get you to get all the money in. He has two pair AT THE MINIMUM. Fold.

[cornell2005]

the problem with raising is the other players in the hand. one of them could easily be ahead of you, and decided (probably incorrectly) not to raise the flop or turn. in a heads up pot vs the min better i would like raising much more. as it is, play it for a showdown and call down

[SpiderMnkE]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so you thought he was on a draw...not a terrible guess (and it ws mostly a guess, right?) What did you expect to accomplish with the raise?

1. If he's on a draw, he folds.
2. If he's got a mediocre ace, he calls and probably checks to you on the river.
3. If he's got you beat, he reraises.

Looks like you found out your answer. Fold without a second thought.

The Doc

PS Just checked the stack sizes, he raised to $7 with like $3 behind. No one does this unless they want to get called. He's trying to get you to get all the money in. He has two pair AT THE MINIMUM. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. If he's on a draw, he CALLS!

2. If he's got a mediocre ace, he calls and checks on the river.

3. If he's got me beat, he reraises


As it turns out I folded... but I think a lot of the time I'm ahead here... can collect some bets.. and check through the river.

The only way I'm going to get any money from a draw is to raise them now. The river they will obviously fold.

I could be beating a medium ace.. or losing.. so I don't know about the river. It's mostly a check through.. but I made some money off the draws.

[Wayfare]

That's why you try to get to showdown cheap.

Call the $.5 on the turn and see what the river brings.

[GimmeDaWatch]

Im gonna stick up for Spider's point of view on this one. I dont think its likely anyone else thats calling a min bet has him beat here, and the min bet is often used by draws. I think this raise will work most of the time, although I would probably make a raise to $2 or $3 on the flop. Evidently, he was min betting to get some action with a big hand and see if anyone else had anything (or he's a loony, which one can never rule out at these tables). Anyway, I fold to a re-raise on the turn, but its rare that you'll get re-raised here.

[cornell2005]

also dont forget that with so many players still in the hand, its not unlikely that the river will bring 2 pair for someone. you just dont want to build the pot here in a multiway hand

[SpiderMnkE]

Is it that bad to try and knock out some of the players with weak one pair hands?

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it that bad to try and knock out some of the players with weak one pair hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, very /images/graemlins/smile.gif thats a pretty common misconception. you really shouldnt ever make a move in nl just to "knock" people out. in limit you can try to clean up some of your outs, but in nl its differnet.

[SpiderMnkE]

why so?

[cornell2005]

hmm im not sure if i can answer this correctly, but an attempt woudl go like this.

what hands do you want to knock out here? im assuming you are referring to a pair of jacks or something, so that they dont get a chance to hit 2 pair on the river. well, it can be shown mathematically that this concern is so small that making a move to knock out this hand would be so detremental in other ways that it isnt worth it. you can set a certain probability to the chance that everyone is on 1 pair, and your 1 pair is highest. this number is maybe ilke 50%, who knows. now, find the probability that someones lower pair makes 2 pair on the river, and jumps ahead of you. this number is pertty small. now, figure out what amount you would have bet to knock that one hand out on the turn. now, note the amount of the lost EV (from other players folding that you didnt want to fold) becuase you bet so much higher. its almost never the case that this number is smaller than the amount you save by betting abnormally large to knock out lower 1 pairs. this is kinda convoluted, but maybe you see what im getting at. 1. you dont know if your ahead right now 2. you dont know if someone is goign to pair up on the river and you arnt. 3. you dont know that the person that would have beat you on the river will fold on the turn if you bet abnormally large 4. you lose expected value from all the other lower pairs on the turn that would have called a turn and river bet, and lost to you.

or maybe its better said this way: the change that your behind now is too high, and putting more money in the pot when your behind sucks. also, the chance that you are ahead now, but will be behind on the river vs a hand you could have folded out on the turn, is low.

[SpiderMnkE]

This makes sense... somehow I had never heard this concept.