My $.02 on becoming pro poker players (Long)

I've read a lot of threads regarding turning pro....I wanted to chime in with my views:


First of all, I love poker...and I can't honestly say I'm a winning low limit player (4-8, 8-16 lives games, tournaments, and 2-4,3-6, and 5-10 online player), but I could never see myself turning pro. I just couldn't see myself spending all that time in a casino or in front of a computer grinding out 1.5 BB a session. Heck, it's tough enough to make that money. Plus, I've noticed the people I see at a casino poker have no lives...they spend every minute of everyday in a poker room...if their not playing, their asking for a stake....I see it in Vegas quite a bit.


Although playing poker at a high level requires a strong mind, I think if you are a pro player playing for 50 hrs...your mind turns to mush on other subjects, and you start losing the concept or reality....I remember one day, I asked a frequent player what he thought of the Salt Lake City Kidnapping....and he had no clue what I was talking about...


Maybe it's the fact that I have other intrest besides poker to occupy my time (COmputer networking and going to the gym), but every time I go to a casino, I see a lot of players have the face of desperation, where their livelyhood depends on a turn of a card....there's just too much stress in this world to be worried about if I'm going to eat if the wrong card hits the river...


Life requires a balance..that's why I would never quit my job to be a professional poker player.....Don't get my wrong, I admire those who try and succeed as professionals....so maybe works for some people, but for the majority of us...poker is just a game....


Poker, in and of itself, is a great game....probably the greatest card game in the world, but you have to put in it's proper perspective...Poker is just a game..it's not life...the moment you believe poker is life...is the moment you should look at yourself in the mirror and refocus on what's really important...

balt999,

yoour message was just what I needed to hear. Many thanks and good luck in future poker games.

Poker isn't life but it is damn fun and anything that you love that you can get paid for(legally) is great! Especially for a guy like me that has never been passionate about anything in his life. I also have a job and make more per/hour(and possibly yearly, havent quite finished my first year of playing) playing poker than at my job, but I gotta keep focused on some long term goals. I just dont see it being very possible to win enough to support a family, year in and year out. The variance alone with that type of pressure would kill me.


Still, great post. A balanced life is one of the reasons you will rarely find me in the casinos on the weekend nights, I gotta live the life of a regular single 25 year old. I spend enough time there during the weekdays, but I don't begrudge the people that play those times. Hell, I'm missing some of the most profitable times.


As for the railbirds and people who hang out at the casino even when they aren't playing, I have friends that say one of the reasons they don't play too much is they see some of the true addicts and railbirds playing and it disgusts them. Who really cares? This is where they get their social interaction with people with similar interests, it's a lot more fun than most other exploits. Take their money and focus on being able to look at poker objectively in your own life. You aren't them.


Anyways, just a rant while I sit bored at work. Peace.


DN

You gave us a helluva lot more than $.02. Very thoughtful post.


"I've noticed the people I see at a casino poker have no lives...they spend every minute of everyday in a poker room...if their not playing, their asking for a stake....I see it in Vegas quite a bit."


-"No" lives is your description. While there are certainly some who are addicts and don't know it or who know it and can't (or choose not to) fight it, there must be some who love it and don't see it as "no" life. They're living what is for them a dream.


I do think many are indeed addicted to gambling per se and when they're not playing poker (and even when they are) they're betting on horses, sports, you name it.


"your mind turns to mush on other subjects"


-I've had discussions with poker pros on classical music, on the history of the cinema, and on their philosophy of life. Like in all walks of life, you find interesting, well-rounded thoughtful people and some who are less so.


"....there's just too much stress in this world to be worried about if I'm going to eat if the wrong card hits the river..."


-Well, where I play, if you play big enough, the food is free. Seriously, though, a lot of people live that way: for example, a commissioned salesman. I suppose one could make an argument that having to do this keeps one sharp, as opposed to those who have cushier jobs.


Judging from what those who should know say about it (Sklansky, etc.) it seems it's a hard way to make a living and not too many are successful (in either a financial or any other sense).


"Poker is just a game..it's not life"


-Yes, it's a game that we "play." I think that's the ultimate enjoyment for a lot of people, the childishness of it.


"you should look at yourself in the mirror and refocus on what's really important..."


-Having recently been forced to do this myself, I strongly second the motion.

You couldn't see yourself grinding out 1.5bb per hour? what does this mean? If you were good enough to make 1.5bb per hour in like a 20-40 game this would be 120k per year, that's certainly nothing to scoff at- of course almost nobody makes this much at 20-40 but that's not really the point.

You said pros are either playing or looking for a stake- well if they need to find a stake then they are not really a pro- they are simply a busted wannabe.

While some people may be without a life and spend most of their waking hours in a casino this doesn't mean that all or even most of them do this. Now take for example a guy who is playing cards an average of 40hrs a week. Is he a poker player without a life? Well what would his alternative be? Almost for sure it would be to work for 40 hrs a week at some other type of job, on somebody ELSES schedule. This is precisely one of the things I like about just playing poker for income- if something comes up- you are free to go, if you get a last minute date one night- out the door, no boss to ask for the day off just take it, period.

There are many things to say on this topic but saying that poker hinders a real life is only the work of those who do it to themselves, because the reality is that poker frees up ones life as well as anything. I work my schedule not some employers schedule.

By the way is spending time behind a computer a life either? At first I thought that statement was a joke but I guess it wasn't.


Kris

I had to post a response to this because there was so much that I agreed and disagreed with.


I agree, for most people becoming a professional poker player is a bad move. If you are an "average good" poker player making $50k a year, that wouldn't be terrible, but many of us could do better in the real world. Stability counts for a lot also.


I think many of the people you describe are poker bums, not professionals. Poker bums are depressing miserable people who don't know when to give up. On the contrary, I have found most poker enthusiasts to be very interesting, well-rounded people. In addition to having a good deal of knowledge, most seem to have a cynical sense of humor that is extremely amusing.


Your statement about poker not being life is the one that irked me. I very much agree that perspective is important, but most people lose perspective in life about things far less entertaining than poker. I hold degrees in Computer Science and Statistics. To think that spending my lifetime writing E1/T1 framer drivers, or finding a more efficient method to find the eigan value of a large sparse matrix is somehow more fulfilling than playing poker is ridiculous to me. My work makes other people money and hence it makes them happy. Poker sometimes makes me money, but almost always makes me happy…If that’s the case why shouldn’t I play as much as possible.


For me, poker is an obsessive hobby and a religion wrapped into one. I wouldn’t want to do it for a living for fear that it would spoil and go bad. In many ways, going to the Taj is like going to church. It is the perfect combination of left-brain/right-brain activity…It is one of the few places where it is okay, even encouraged, be overly aggressive and to stare down an opponent. I can’t think of another activity where I can walk away from a 30 hour session feeling so good. At these times I think poker is more “real-life” than banging out code for 8-hours a day.


Am I obsessed? Probably…. Is it unhealthy? Probably? Do I care? Not really. Luckily I have a very supportive girlfriend who wishes me “Aces and Faces” every time I head to AC, a job that caters to my need for analytical thinking, and the control to stop playing when it is no longer fun(or at least I hope so. It has not stopped being fun yet).


-J

I hate when people write posts about how the life of a pro poker player is so terrible. My guess is that most who write such things are envious of those who succeed at doing it for a living because they wish they could do it. And it is a way for them to feel better about themselves by saying that there( the pros) lives are pathetic. Just because you wouldn't like the life doesn't mean its not a good life. To me sitting inside a casino for the same time that some would sit in some office for 40 or 50 hours a week is no comparison. The casino is much nicer for me. It might not be for you. Do what is best for you. Don't tell people how they should feel about there poker lives. And i'm not saying the life is always easy. But i don't decide if i'm gonna eat on the fall of a card. Unless if its a really bad beat it might make me naucious. But the point is if your a real pro your not playing with your entire bankroll in one session.


As far as poker being pros whole lives is somewhat true. But in any career one chooses it becomes a major part of there lives. Do you think computers are a major part of Bill Gates life? Do you think writers write alot? Do people who open up a business have the business on there mind alot. Unless your working for someone else to make money your mind is on it. Because you know the better you do you in your own career, the more successful you will be financially and emotionally. But too much is not healthy in any carreer one chooses. Maintaining a good balance is what all should strive for.

>I just couldn't see myself spending all that time in a casino or in front of a computer grinding out 1.5 BB a session. Heck, it's tough enough to make that money.


Try sitting in an office and grinding out your daily salary. What's the difference? I sat in an office for three years, earning a paycheque, paying into a pension plan, "putting my university degree to work!". I don't think any word describes it better than grinding!


>Plus, I've noticed the people I see at a casino poker have no lives...they spend every minute of everyday in a poker room...if their not playing, their asking for a stake....I see it in Vegas quite a bit.


I see people at work who live paycheque to paycheque, accumulating mountains of credit card debt. Their lives involve going to work, then going home and complaining about work. Having a 9-5 job is not some great path to self fulfillment or financial security. That is achieved by realizing what your goals are, recognizing the steps required to achieve them, and then executing those plans. Certainly in poker, your goals are much different, and the methods you must use to achieve those goals are much different. But that's just something you have to deal with.


>Although playing poker at a high level requires a strong mind, I think if you are a pro player playing for 50 hrs...your mind turns to mush on other subjects, and you start losing the concept or reality....I remember one day, I asked a frequent player what he thought of the Salt Lake City Kidnapping....and he had no clue what I was talking about...


What kind of answer do you expect to "what he thought of the Salt Lake City Kidnapping"? An analysis of the pros and cons?


But seriously, I didn't find working in an office to be exceptionally mentally enhancing either. And you do lose a grip on reality when you start deciding that what you wear to work will enhance your productivity, or that you should be nice to people who are out to screw you over, or that your work can be done best between exactly the hours of 8am and 5pm. In many cases, the corporate world restricts productivity for those people who are inspired (but gives structure and order to those undisciplined or incompetent people that is sorely needed).


>... every time I go to a casino, I see a lot of players have the face of desperation, where their livelyhood depends on a turn of a card....there's just too much stress in this world to be worried about if I'm going to eat if the wrong card hits the river...


That's just bad financial planning. And you see it everywhere in all aspects of life, not just poker. If you play poker and manage your bankroll correctly, your next meal should never depend on any river card. Ever see someone at work talking about paying off one credit card with another? Or wondering how to pay off all their bills? These people are behind broke railbirds, because they're in debt. I remember reading a story about Donald Trump once. Trump was at or near his lowest point and had huge debts but of course still had enough cash to live big. At one point, he got out of a limo, in a fancy suit, and looked at a bum on the street and realized that that bum was in better financial condition than him (ie the bum was at 0.00, while Trump was at -XXXXXX). Just because you have guaranteed money coming in doesn't mean you're in good financial shape.


>Life requires a balance..that's why I would never quit my job to be a professional poker player.....


Why does playing poker for a living preclude the idea of having balance in your life? Its still 30-40 hours out of your week whether you spend it at a poker table, in front of a computer screen, or hovering over the grill at McDonalds. Whats to stop a poker player from playing his 30 hours per week, five 6 hour days, and spending the other time volunteering at a hospital, feeding the homeless, studying foreign languages, becoming Mr Universe, whatever the things are that you think are worth doing in life?


>Poker is just a game..it's not life...the moment you believe poker is life...is the moment you should look at yourself in the mirror and refocus on what's really important...


This is true of anything.


Your post only focusses on what happens when undisciplined people play poker for a living and what happens when they screw up their lives. I met people who couldn't handle life in University, I met people who couldn't handle life in the workforce, and I met people who couldn't handle life at the poker table. Don't blame the environment for their failings.


I'll grant you this. Poker attracts those people who think its an easy way to make a living. But those kind of people generally find something to ruin their lives with. And that's not the fault of poker. Your rant is against people who don't know how to manage their lives...not poker.


I like poker as a job because there is no politics, no favoritism, nothing. Performance decides who gets the highest salary, and performance decides who gets fired. End of story.

I love reading these threads, I almost never reply to them, because it seems like I'm bragging. Which I am.


First of all, I love poker


Amen to that, even on its worst days poker fills a need in me to prove that I'm better at something than most people.


I quit my job in a Mississippi casino and moved to a little ski town in Southern Utah. The air at 9,600 ft is clear and crisp. I live with my wife across the street from the main lift and have a somewhat clear view, the squirrel- filled aspen trees slightly block my view of the mountain meadows leading up to the peak. Right now the Rufus hummingbird is chasing about six other humming birds away from the two feeders on my balcony, both cats consider these just recalcitrant toys which will soon be close at hand.


During the winter, even with all the wood that must be humped in for the fireplace, my quality of life goes off the scale.


We played about 45 hours a week last year, when we moved here, and it is now around 30 hours. We broke even the first two months and have been some kind of winner each month since. I get up early each morning and play $3-6 and $5-10 split, for about three hours and when she gets up she takes over for 2-3 hours. We will play some $10-20 and tournaments for a few hours after supper. Then watch TV or read in the evening.


Although in the long term how we do decides what we eat and what bills get paid, we never decide hamburger over steak on days we lose.


Some mornings, just before I awake, I dream that the alarm is about to go off and I'm going to have to put on a suit and tie on and go to work.


But soon the large hungry cat starts licking some nearby plastic and I realize that it just time to get up and play poker and feed the damn cats.


Have a nice day.


MS Sunshine

"But soon the large hungry cat starts licking some nearby plastic and I realize that it just time to get up and play poker and feed the damn cats."


Glad to know who runs your household.


URMeowed


=^._.^=

Not to mention that 9-5 jobs frequently become 8-7 plus weekends. The corporate world is the biggest grind imaginable!


And does one really need to know about every detail of kidnappings and other human tragedy to be a better person? One of the most positive things I ever did for myself was years ago when I stopped following the news obsessively.

Good post.


Do you consider yourself to be a pro (or semi-pro) poker player now? That's what it sounds like; more power to you if it's true.


By the way, has K-Days had as big an effect at the casino poker tables as it has had in the past? I ask this because I'm looking to play a bit during my week off work, and I want to know whether I should bother going to Baccarat or Palace with K-Days on.


Thanks,


Eric

Sorry Eric, I'm in Seoul, South Korea right now and have been for the past month, so I wouldn't know. My friends back home say that most of the action is at Yellowhead however.


Not a pro by any stretch of the imagination, to answer your other question.

"I remember one day, I asked a frequent player what he thought of the Salt Lake City Kidnapping....and he had no clue what I was talking about"


i have no idea what you are talking about. and i spend barely any time at all in a cardroom. i have plenty of interests outside of poker. watching/reading the news is far from being one of them, however.

"Try sitting in an office and grinding out your daily salary. What's the difference? I sat in an office for three years, earning a paycheque, paying into a pension plan, "putting my university degree to work!". I don't think any word describes it better than grinding! "


weren't you gettin on my case to be a productive member of society and get a day job a couple months ago? telling me i should get a degree in something more useful than philosophy so i can become this mythical 'productive member of society'?