More Lies about Israel that people love to swallow

[Gamblor]

On Friday (Aug. 27), CBS News' Leslie Stahl reported in dramatic fashion that the FBI is investigating whether a Pentagon official provided classified information about U.S. policy toward Iran to the government of Israel, via the pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC. CBS sources indicated that the 'suspected mole' was 'working at the highest levels of the Pentagon.' CBS went so far to suggest that the issue raises a broader, more damning question: 'Did Israel also use the analyst to try to influence U.S. policy on the War in Iraq?' (see CBS video (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/videoplayer/newVid/small_player/cbsnews_videoplayer.shtml?clip=/media/2004/08/27/video639165.rm&sec=3420&vidId=3420&title=FBI$@$Pro bes$@$Pentagon$@$Spy&hitboxMLC=eveningnews))

This CBS bombshell set off a landslide of media reports Saturday (Aug. 28), some giving the false impression that allegations of Israeli espionage in the Pentagon were substantiated. For example, the Melbourne Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10600072^663,00.html) announced in their headline: 'Israel spy found at Pentagon,' then went on to declare unequivocally, 'An Israeli spy has been uncovered at the highest levels of the Pentagon, the FBI confirmed last night...'

Though both AIPAC and the Israeli government have vehemently denied any such covert activity in the U.S., the media damage doesn't particularly care. Former Mossad chief Uzi Arad acknowledged that despite Israel's complete non-involvement in the matter, the affair already 'has taken on a proportion that is damaging to us and to the United States.'

Yet at the time of this communique, the whole matter is beginning to look, as Ma'ariv (http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=10841) puts it, like 'a surfeit of hype forced into bed with a paucity of fact.' The suspected Pentagon figure, Larry Franklin, is not a 'high level' operative (as CBS originally reported), but rather a desk officer in the Defense Department's Near East and South Asia Bureau. (Franklin also is not Jewish.) A senior Bush administration figure told the press that

from what we know, Larry Franklin looks more like an incompetent fool way out of his depth than a spy. He apparently passed on some papers to Israel without realizing the ramifications of his actions... Another senior source said that Israel did not need Franklin's information. Israel's contacts with high-level officials are such that a phone call to the US would have been sufficient to elicit the information.

Given the fact that the FBI investigation into Franklin has been underway for over a year, one wonders why the leak to the press at this time, before even any formal charges have been made? The Jerusalem Council for Public Affairs noted today an altogether plausible reason - internal US conflicts:

Both the CIA and the FBI are fighting a "battle for survival" after repeated U.S. commissions have attacked them for failing to prevent 9/11. Israel, according to Amir Oren (Ha'aretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/470420.html)), has been caught in a crossfire between these agencies and their Pentagon rivals.

It should be recalled that following a similar accusation in the late 1990s, CIA Director George Tenet found the charges baseless and wrote Israel a letter of apology.

[ACPlayer]

The poor little weak impotent Israeli state caught in the FBI/CIA cross fire. Never would they dream of espionage against their benefactors (or is their apologists).

[Zeno]

This just illustrates how much issues feed on each other and spin into all sorts of unwarranted 'facts' that get spewed out to the public. People’s preconceived notions and bias also play into this a great deal.

Personally, I think George Bush is an Israeli mole and a tool of Zionism. I think that the JEWS run the world. I think that the lion will lay down with the lamb. I think that swords will be beaten into ploughshares. I also think that I will be ruptured into the heavens to sit at the throne of God - there to sing boring eighteenth century hymns in His praise for all eternity.


Le Misanthrope

[Gamblor]

Allow me to translate:

You're saying all the headlines "confirming" Israeli espionage in "the highest levels of the Pentagon" are completely valid and do not in any way misrepresent the truth, which is that an FBI desk-jockey mentioned some US policy decisions, in passing, to some AIPAC staff?

Further: despite Israel's denials, I assume you and you alone have the conclusive proof of Israeli moles manipulating US-foreign policy. It is only to be extrapolated that you are claiming the United States is no longer a sovereign nation, but a puppet of the Zionist conspiracy?

This whole media blame game is even more astonishing when you consider that the media have been Zionist-apologists for 60 years. I wonder how out of hand this would have gotten if the media were actually biased against Israel: "Israel drops Nuclear bomb on American mother and her children"

Do the United States spy on any of her allies?

Can I borrow your copy of The Protocols?

[ACPlayer]

All I am saying is QUIT WHINING!!!!

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that I will be ruptured into the heavens to sit at the throne of God

[/ QUOTE ]

Souds painful. Or did you mean raptured?

[Gamblor]

All I am saying is QUIT WHINING!!!!

Fair enough.

I hope you can imagine what it's like when your country is slandered falsely.

It's one thing to oppose Israeli (or American) foreign policy. Argue the War in Iraq or Israeli Arab policy all you want; but it's another thing entirely to maliciously spread lies to drive people into a frenzy and calling for your head.

As long as people recognize that they are reading blatantly false information, there's a small chance they might realize that Israeli foreign policy is the way it is for perfectly fair, moral, and ethical reasons.

And if I can help them get there, then I'll keep posting this shit.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Do the United States spy on any of her allies?


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know for certain, but Id be willing to say yes, in at least some form or fashion. I understand your problems with the vast hype this incident has received. I am a great believer in the Israeli-US alliance but I am not so naive as to believe that both countries dont have their best interests in mind either.

[Rushmore]

It really sucks that everyone persecutes the Israelis so egregiously, both in water-cooler conversation and in the obviously Anti-Israel media.

This persecution has been so terrible that Israel is inexplicably held in remarkably high esteem here in the U.S., in spite of the fact that so many, many, many, many other nations in the world have condemned Israel and the questionable tactics it often employs worldwide.

"More lies about Israel that people love to swallow."

That's true. "People love to swallow" these lies about Israel.

By the way, why do "people love to swallow" these lies? Is it that "people" (I guess you mean the mindless American herd) just need to hate Israel?

Honestly, why do they "love to swallow" these lies? I cannot understand an entire population's desire to believe lies.

Please explain.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Souds painful. Or did you mean raptured?




[/ QUOTE ]


Well yes, I think that is what I meant. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Raptured. Damn my poor spelling ability and no proofreader either.

However, ruptured into heaven has its own funny and unique possibilities to it also. But I think that I should stick with the standard theological interpretations. Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways.

-Zeno

[Cyrus]

When Jonathan Pollard gets out of jail, the leaders of Israel and quite a lot of Israelis are going to welcome him like a hero. They already proclaim him as such. If anyone doubts this, he should just check the Betar website --- that's the Betar that Gamblor is a member of. Many more like that around.

What is that supposed to tell us about the balance in Israeli-American relations?

The United States would never welcome back as a hero someone who was caught spying against an ally!

(In Israel's case, moreover, the US is not just "an ally" but literally the one country in the world that keeps Israel afloat diplomatically, militarily and, most of all, economically.)

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
(In Israel's case, moreover, the US is not just "an ally" but literally the one country in the world that keeps Israel afloat diplomatically, militarily and, most of all, economically.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extremely important distinction. There is a huge difference between being one's ally and one's benefactor.

P.S. Ringing the "anti-semite" bell every time anyone questions Israel's actions is fairly standard. I suppose it's not a huge surprise, is it?

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
All I am saying is QUIT WHINING!!!!

Fair enough.

I hope you can imagine what it's like when your country is slandered falsely.

It's one thing to oppose Israeli (or American) foreign policy. Argue the War in Iraq or Israeli Arab policy all you want; but it's another thing entirely to maliciously spread lies to drive people into a frenzy and calling for your head.

As long as people recognize that they are reading blatantly false information, there's a small chance they might realize that Israeli foreign policy is the way it is for perfectly fair, moral, and ethical reasons.

And if I can help them get there, then I'll keep posting this shit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought Toronto was in canada? How is it your country?

I suspect on these boards and elsewhere that the US probably gets slandered the most.

Whats interesting is that Sudan is probably the worst place in the world at the moment is crying out for UN intervention but strangely the US doesnt seem to want to send the troops in, strange that. Also there isnt one thread on the front page of this forum.

[nicky g]

To be fair Gamblor has posted on Darfur/Sudan several times, although largely as a route to bashing Arabs.

[wacki]

I agree. The sudan is tragic. But do you think the US public is ready to send troops to fight in another country?

I read an article talking about how the New York Times has printed over 5 times as many words this year over Paris Hilton than the Sudan slaughter. Ironic since something like 50,000 people have died there.

[ACPlayer]

I posted a thread entitled "Where's the outrage" on this subject (Sudan) over a month ago. The thread quickly degenerated into one on Arabs/Jews led by yet another Gamblor (who cannot see past his perceived persecution of the Zionists) whine.

Not one of the people quick to suggest that we went to Iraq solely to rescue the iraqi's from Saddam thought it was worth a direct response.

[Gamblor]

The United States would never welcome back as a hero someone who was caught spying against an ally!

That's a bold claim.

On what reality is it based?

[Gamblor]

Ringing the "anti-semite" bell every time anyone questions Israel's actions is fairly standard. I suppose it's not a huge surprise, is it?

I didn't ring any anti-semite bell.

[Gamblor]

although largely as a route to bashing Arabs.

I don't bash Arabs - these posts are meant specifically to provide further evidence that within the context of ethnic cleansing in the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli conflict, it is the Arabs who are uninterested in a peaceful settlement that does not further Arab homogeny, while Israeli peace efforts are met with nothing but belligerence.

Once again (and I can't believe I have to say it again), there is nothing against any particular Arab or the ethnicity. Sure, Israeli racists exist, just as American racists exist.

When I was younger, I was in a program that matched us up with a penpal from Jordan, and I even met the kid a couple times (we went rafting/kayaking in the Jordan River - I suggest you try it). Good guy. There are tons of programs like this in Israel that include soccer camps, school programs, etc. etc. This is not an ethnic thing.

I DO, however, have much against the political and religious forces that drive the Arab nation-states' policy-making and imperialist attitudes, exemplified most by the existence of the Arab League.

[Gamblor]

why do "people love to swallow" these lies? Is it that "people" (I guess you mean the mindless American herd) just need to hate Israel?

Wouldn't you be resentful if 40,000x your annual income went to a foreign state?

Now, despite the fact that a similar amount goes to a state whose national newspaper regularly disseminates anti-American propaganda (Egypt), which state is in the news more? Which state gets more camera time?

When Arabs were threatening the annihilation of Israel on a daily basis, Israel was the Little Engine That Could. Everyone loved Israel. Let's give Israel more money, they said.

Now Israel has survived all of that. She is strong enough militarily (due to that aid) to defend herself properly. She has the beginnings of an independent economy. The frontier garrison mentality there is beginning to disappear. But every move her 5 million people make, right or wrong, is plastered all over the world headlines and is yet another reason why we should take that money and spend it elsewhere.

Hence, any lie that provides a reason to spend that $2.8 billion on something more just, like health care, is a lie worth believing.

[Rushmore]

I was responding to the title of Cyrus' post.

Although I stand by my statement and believe it to be true, I must admit that this topic has not been properly introduced into the discussion.

I do, however, believe that folks have a fairly liberal definition of the word ally.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't you be resentful if 40,000x your annual income went to a foreign state?

[/ QUOTE ]

When it seems like an inexplicable agenda, the true premises for which the American public is not permitted access? Sure I am.

[ QUOTE ]
Hence, any lie that provides a reason to spend that $2.8 billion on something more just, like health care, is a lie worth believing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting argument. You seem to be saying that it's understandable for the American people to have a sort of backlash mentality against Israel because the lie they're being told is perfect propaganda.

First, I don't see the same backlash that you do. I DO see a bit more even-handed treatment of the topic in the news in the last five years. But a backlash? No.

Second, I'm not sure your point about health care is a "lie." This is certainly open to interpretation.

[ QUOTE ]
When Arabs were threatening the annihilation of Israel on a daily basis, Israel was the Little Engine That Could. Everyone loved Israel. Let's give Israel more money, they said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that didn't really work out very well, it's true.

[Gamblor]

Second, I'm not sure your point about health care is a "lie." This is certainly open to interpretation.

What I meant was that any story or possible event that provides justification for taking aid to Israel, and using it domestically, would be taken immediately at face value by the public.

All this, simply because aid to Israel gets more airplay than aid to any other country, especially Egypt. Most Americans are clueless that 2 billion dollars annually is handed over to Egypt, but everyone knows about the 2.8 billion to Israel.

Let's give them more money, they said

that didn't work out very well, it's true

Worst of all, it made Israeli politicians into circus animals that came to the US to perform once in a while to get their alms. It also subjected Israeli foreign policy to US approval.

[nicky g]

" Most Americans are clueless that 2 billion dollars annually is handed over to Egypt, but everyone knows about the 2.8 billion to Israel."

Maybe that's true, but there are three points to consider here:

1. Israel gets vastly vastly more per capita aid than Egypt.
2. Israel is much wealthier than Egypt (although both are much wealthier than for example sub-Saharan African countries that are in much greater need of aid)
3. Most importantly, Egypt gets that aid pretty much because of/to help out Israel. It is there to persude Egypt to play (relatively) nice with Israel.

[Gamblor]

It is there to persude Egypt to play (relatively) nice with Israel.

In hindsight, isn't peace (however cold) worth 2 billion dollars?

I would have loved to have been around the day Sadat came to visit.

Imagine the President of Egypt giving a speech in the Knesset today.

[nicky g]

"isn't peace (however cold) worth 2 billion dollars?"

Quite possibly. But my point was that Israel benefits significantly from US aid to Egypt, much more so than Egypt does from US aid to Israel. Also Egyptian aid is in practice contingent on it maintaining peaceful relations with Israel. US aid to Israel doesn't in practice seem to depend on anything.

[ACPlayer]

Egypt gets the aid as a direct result of the US support for Israel and not because the US particularly cares about the Egyptian public.

Ironically, the aid to egypt is one of the factors behind 9/11 and the growing hatred of the US in the arab world. Remember that AQ's number 2 is egyptian.

Aid to both egypt and israel should come to an end. It is in our best interest (and the best interest of the world at large).

[Gamblor]

Aid to both egypt and israel should come to an end. It is in our best interest (and the best interest of the world at large).

You're not as dumb as I thought.

A point to make, though:

Arab hatred of Israel began long before American support of Israel. The Americans only began to aid Israel around the Six Day war.

I maintain that Arab claims of American imperialism are a red herring in the Middle East - it is really the goal of Arab imperialism and hegemony that is to blame.

[ACPlayer]

I have voiced my opposition to aid to Egypt, Saudi and Israel many times. This aid and support is causing us untold grief. Without our support, Israel willhave to deal with its neigbhours equitably and reasonably.


I maintain that Arab claims of American imperialism are a red herring in the Middle East - it is really the goal of Arab imperialism and hegemony that is to blame.

Impressive words, but clearly incorrect thinking.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I have voiced my opposition to aid to Egypt, Saudi and Israel many times. This aid and support is causing us untold grief. Without our support, Israel willhave to deal with its neigbhours equitably and reasonably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I think that horse is out of the barn, and the barn is on fire.

[Gamblor]

I maintain that Arab claims of American imperialism are a red herring in the Middle East - it is really the goal of Arab imperialism and hegemony that is to blame.

Impressive words, but clearly incorrect thinking.

And this is why I continue to post articles and arguments that support my claim that the default view in the Arab world is that the Middle East is, by the will of Allah, strictly Arab territory.

[ACPlayer]

And the default view amongst the Zionists is that the land upto the Jordan river is by God's will that of the Jews.

Further the default view is that all Palestinians are terrorists atleast by association.

[Cyrus]

That's a laugh. (Not only a bigot, but a short-memory bigot, too...) /images/graemlins/cool.gif

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was a hoax perpetrated by the Russian Tsar's secret police. That forged document was used as a pretext to unleash (yet another) anti-Semite pogrom against Jews in Tsarist Russia. Sinced that time, "the Protocols" have rightly become another symbol of anti-semitism.

You used the phrase "Protocols of the Elders of Washington, DC" as the title of your post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=973050&page=26&view=e xpanded&sb=6&o=14&fpart=#973050) , when you responded to AC Player's post. You clearly insinuated anti-semitism coming from AC Player, me and anyone in this thread who dared accuse Israel of spying against the United States.

So stop the pathetic denials already. You Betar folks are known to be quick on the trigger with the "Anti-Semites!!" accusations. You've made life hell for a lot of people, including Jews, who dared question Israeli policies.

[Cyrus]

"Worst of all, [US aid] made Israeli politicians into circus animals that came to the US to perform once in a while to get their alms. It also subjected Israeli foreign policy to US approval."

No, that's wrong. The Israeli politicians go to the United States to boost up the AIPAC's strength, touch base with the pro-Israeli lobby in Congress and straighten out the latest discrepancy between US Mi-East policy and Israeli Mid-East policy.

And it is always Israeli Mid-East policy that prevails! To claim that Israeli leaders have to perform a song-and-dance for US aid is absurd! It's American Mid-East policy that must be approved by Israel and not the other way around.

E.g. the (famous) Bush roadmap to peace, a (supposedly) key stone of post-9/11 Middle East policy for the US -- which is now a dead duck, since it did not meet with the approval of Sharon's government! Did you hear the loud screams of protest and the ominous threats coming out of Washington for this slap in the face ? (Nope. Neither did I.)

[Gamblor]

And the default view amongst the Zionists is that the land upto the Jordan river is by God's will that of the Jews.

As a Zionist I can personally refute that. You're referring to the belief of the Religious Zionists, a relatively small minority among the Israeli population.

Most Zionists believe that the land up to the Jordan River is subject to the right of Jews to settle it. Either exclusively or amongst another ethnic population. The early Labour Zionists (who were the original Zionists, were totally secular, led by Herzl, and by early, I mean 19th century) were fully prepared to share the land with any Arab population. However, Arab belligerence toward Jewish immigrants and refugees from the Soviet Union, culminating in the Hevron massacre in 1929, led Zionists like Ze'ev Jabotinsky to assume that no Arab would ever allow a Jewish self-government in British Mandate Palestine. As such, he advocated separating the populations for the protection of the Jews who were vastly outnumbered, and had no other refuge.

[i]Further the default view is that all Palestinians are terrorists atleast by association.

Not by association, but by accomplice-ation. Non-terrorist Palestinians participate in programs I mentioned above, like the soccer camp that has been run for the last couple years for both Palestinian and Israeli kids. But the vast majority of Palestinians are either direct supporters of terrorism, or are complicit in that they have not rebelled and overthrown a regime (Arafat's) that supports and conducts terror.

If any Palestinians had a moral objection to the murder of innocent civilians for political gain, they would have overthrown (or attempted to overthrow) the Arafat regime and discouraged the terrorist groups from operating

[nicky g]

"Most Zionists believe that the land up to the Jordan River is subject to the right of Jews to settle it. Either exclusively or amongst another ethnic population. The early Labour Zionists (who were the original Zionists, were totally secular, led by Herzl, and by early, I mean 19th century) were fully prepared to share the land with any Arab population. However, Arab belligerence toward Jewish immigrants and refugees from the Soviet Union, culminating in the Hevron massacre in 1929, led Zionists like Ze'ev Jabotinsky to assume that no Arab would ever allow a Jewish self-government in British Mandate Palestine."

To the people of Uzbekistan; I and my fellow Irishmean have unilaterally decided it is our right to settle your land. However, fear not! We are fully prepared to share the land with you, the indigenous community of Uzbekistan! Subject of course to your non-resistance to our plan. A 50:50 split seems reasonable to me. I can see no reasonable objections or problems emanating from this decision of ours.

[ACPlayer]

Given that you frequently get tied up in knots on this forum, it is hard to know what you believe. However, the zionists actively seek out additional jews to come and live in the land, presumably under the belief that this small, rather arid, piece of land can support millions of palestinians and additional millions of jews.

So, to say that the Zionists are in the mood to share the land is idiotic. Any such platitudes from their mouths is quickly refuted by the actions on the ground.

There is a very loose definition of "accomplice-ation" when children of the families of accused terrorists are killed by bulldoizers demolishing their ghetto homes. Shades of Nazi activities in the ghettos of Poland, or when innocent bystanders are killed by missiles from Apache helicopters by the brave airmen of the Israeli armed services.

[Gamblor]

You clearly insinuated anti-semitism coming from AC Player, me and anyone in this thread who dared accuse Israel of spying against the United States.

I accused the media of perpetrating a hoax that Israeli spies were reaching the upper echelons of the Pentagon and controlling American foreign policy, when this is a well-established case of a low-level Pentagon desk jockey accidentally releasing information he shouldn't have.

All of this is strikingly similar to the Protocols hoax in which Jewish "elders" were plotting to control the world.

In Toronto, I have a Polish friend who isn't Jewish. She came out with some friends and I one night. In conversation with a Jewish friend, she asked him where his family was from; he said "We're Polish." She responded, with a straight face "Well, not pure Polish, right?"

Whether the broadcasts' goals were anti-semitic in nature (which I don't believe they were), or more of a sensationalist ratings-grabber (which they were), it doesn't matter because the damage done to Israel's reputation has anti-semitic effects in result, if not intent. Any red-blooded (read: not Jewish) American who reads "Israeli spies found in Pentagon" must have questions about American support of Israel and whether AIPAC is a Jewish organization or an American organization.

You Betar folks are known to be quick on the trigger with the "Anti-Semites!!" accusations. You've made life hell for a lot of people, including Jews, who dared question Israeli policies.

Yes yes, and black people "are known to be" lazy and white people "are known to be" poor dancers.

[Gamblor]

To the people of Uzbekistan; I and my fellow Irishmean have unilaterally decided it is our right to settle your land. However, fear not! We are fully prepared to share the land with you, the indigenous community of Uzbekistan!

The Irish have no prior history in Uzbekistan, while there has been a continuous Jewish population (and emotional attachment) in Israel since ancient times.

This was not sudden imperialism, but rather a re-assertion of the right to live in Eretz Yisrael.

The vast majority of early Jewish immigrants were not ideological immigrants but refugees from the Soviet Union.

This is basic stuff. There's simply no comparison.

[nicky g]

"I accused the media of perpetrating a hoax that Israeli spies were reaching the upper echelons of the Pentagon and controlling American foreign policy"

None of the reports I read suggested he was controlling any kind of policy, just that he was passing information on.

"when this is a well-established case of a low-level Pentagon desk jockey accidentally releasing information he shouldn't have. "

There is so far nothing well-established about the case. It's still being investigated.

"All of this is strikingly similar to the Protocols hoax in which Jewish "elders" were plotting to control the world."

No, it's not.

"You Betar folks are known to be quick on the trigger with the "Anti-Semites!!" accusations. You've made life hell for a lot of people, including Jews, who dared question Israeli policies.

Yes yes, and black people "are known to be" lazy and white people "are known to be" poor dancers. "

Betar is an organisation people join because of their political views. It is not remotely comparable to a race or ethnicity, and it is perfectly acceptable to generalise about the views of members of a particular voluntary grouping.

[ACPlayer]

Most Zionists believe that the land up to the Jordan River is subject to the right of Jews to settle it.

If one group claims a right, does every other group have to simply accept that claim and move out?

The zionist have no legitimate right to the land of Israel. They may think they have. On the other hand, the Palestinians have every right to defend their homeland by any and every means available to them -- that is their absolute right.

[Gamblor]

Betar is an organisation people join because of their political views.

Betar is an organization people join because their fathers were Betari and they (used to) run a lot of camps and athletic activities in Israel.

[Gamblor]

The zionist have no legitimate right to the land of Israel. They may think they have. On the other hand, the Palestinians have every right to defend their homeland by any and every means available to them -- that is their absolute right.

The right of the Jewish People to a Sovereign State in their Historic Homeland (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp507.htm)

[nicky g]

Fine, we'll resettle France with Huguenot descendants or whatever. There are plenty of people whose distant ancestors lived in other places. The point is that people with no remotely recent connection to the place had no right to tell the locals that they were coming along to "share" their land whether they liked it or not. There are plenty of communities with refugee problems. The answer generally isn't to settle (!) land where there are already plenty of people living.

[Cyrus]

Your posts continue to be so charmingly (and of course unwittingly) revealing!

"Betar is an organization people join because their fathers were Betari and they (used to) run a lot of camps and athletic activities in Israel."

Most fascist organisations, and Betar qualifies by any measure as a fascist organisation, have "sports clubs activities" in their 'prospectuses'. That goes for the Grey Wolves in Turkey, the Ordine Nuovo in Italy, the myriad of post-Franco groups in Spain, the Golden Dawn in Greece, the National Front in Britain, and so on, and so forth. One of the major sources of recruitment by fascists has always been athletic clubs (particularly boxing centers, weighlifting centers,and such) and sport clubs. The fascist recruiters will always look for candidates among a club's fanatical, hardcore followers.

Yours is so typical, it's actually boring.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

And notice I did not bring up the infamous German "sports clubs" circa 1930s. Some other time.

[ACPlayer]

I MIGHT begin to accept this line of thinking if:

1. The Zionists did not keep bringing in economic refugees into the land --- and --
2. Did not keep pushing people off their lands with illegal settlements

However, the fact remains that the right of settlement is something that the Jews invented for their own benefit and is not recognized by anyone else. The state of Israel may now be recognized as a legit state, bur that all Jews all over the world have a right to live there -- that is something only the Zionists believe.

[Cyrus]

We can always cite Israel as a legal precedent!.. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I call upon George W Bush to be our Balfour. Let's trick ol' Dubya into some Stud 8OB Declare, y'all!

[Gamblor]

The state of Israel may now be recognized as a legit state, bur that all Jews all over the world have a right to live there -- that is something only the Zionists believe.

Only recently, and even then, only in North America, are Jews not considered a nation unto themselves, but rather members of the nation in which they inhabit. See my story about my Polish friend (ironically named Sara).

[ACPlayer]

Can you please translate into English? I dont understand Hebrew or Yiddish.

[Gamblor]

Tell me what your definition of "fascist" is.

[Gamblor]

In North America, Jews have only recently been considered members of the nation they inhabit. Before that, they were considered interlopers, not real "Americans" or "Canadians".

In Europe, they are still not considered "locals".

I refer you to this story (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=979916&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) about my friend Sara.

[ACPlayer]

The Irish were considered interlopers, the poles were considered interlopers, the vietnamese are considered interlopers, the Indians ..., the ...

What is special about the Jews? People come here and assimilate in a couple of generations. That's the way it is.

[nicky g]

"In Europe, they are still not considered "locals".

I refer you to this story about my friend Sara. "

That is ridiculous. One antisemitic remark does not reveal the attitudes of an entire continent. I have had several good Jewish friends both here and in Belgium and not one of our group considered them less than 100% British or Belgian; nor do they consider themselves otherwise.

[Gamblor]

People come here and assimilate in a couple of generations. That's the way it is.

And that they are just recently being assimilated, after 1500 years of exile from Israel, doesn't concern you?

Even then, the Jews of 1930s Germany were at least as established and assimilated as the Jews of America today. And they had a great '40s.

[ACPlayer]

You know you really are a piece of work. You bring up North America to which Jews immigrated to mostly in the 20th century. Then you take the self pity back to thousands of years.

I dont see the persecuted blacks in the US claiming a divine right the Negev desert and moving their en masse and then inviting all Africans to join them.

[Gamblor]

You've missed the point (I hope).

You bring up North America to which Jews immigrated to mostly in the 20th century. Then you take the self pity back to thousands of years.

I brought up North America as the exception. The fact that Jews were not in North American en masse until recently is exactly why they are accepted as Americans or Canadians. In Europe, where they were thrust into exile a thousand years ago, they are still outsiders to many Europeans, and thus are Jewish-Polish or Jewish-German, rather than Polish Jews or Jewish Germans.

(Which is also why I hate the term African-American - they're black Americans, just like a white Canadian).

I dont see the persecuted blacks in the US claiming a divine right the Negev desert

I can't see anyone on the planet wanting to claim divine right to the Negev. Clearly you've never seen the arid wasteland. Although, Hamas seems to have a vested interest in Be'erSheva.

[Gamblor]

Why, you ask?

Because there is a population already unified by nationhood and law already in those countries.

In Palestine at the time of the return of the Jews, there had been no established nation, no defined borders, no common law, no currency, language, or predominant ethnicity.

During the restoration of the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, the overwhelming impression of Western visitors in the nineteenth century was that there were few Arab inhabitants. The British Consul General, James Finn, wrote in 1857 that "the country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants." He added that the land's "greatest need is that of a body of population." Mark Twain visited Eretz Israel in 1867, traveled through the Jezreel Valley, and related, "there is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent." Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, the great British cartographer, reached similar conclusions in 1881: "In Judea it is hardly an exaggeration to say that for miles and miles there was no appearance of life or habitation."

Yet the Palestine Liberation Organization has perpetuated a myth, put forward on the world stage by Yasser Arafat at the United Nations in 1974, that "the Jewish invasion [of Palestine] began in 1881." Moreover, he asserted that there was already a large indigenous Arab population when the Jews arrived. His implicit message was that there was a well-entrenched Palestinian society in place before Israel's rebirth, a society that had rights superior to those of the returning Jews.


Rights of the Jewish people to a sovereign state in their historic homeland, revisited (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp507.htm)

[Gamblor]

Most fascist organisations, and Betar qualifies by any measure as a fascist organisation, have "sports clubs activities" in their 'prospectuses'. That goes for the Grey Wolves in Turkey, the Ordine Nuovo in Italy, the myriad of post-Franco groups in Spain, the Golden Dawn in Greece, the National Front in Britain, and so on, and so forth.

Does that include the Boys and Girls Clubs of America and Young Democrats of America, both of whom provide physical exercise opportunity and cultural events (i.e. concerts), as well as political indoctrination?

I wonder about Pop Warner's political leanings.

[spamuell]

Betar is an organization people join because their fathers were Betari and they (used to) run a lot of camps and athletic activities in Israel.

People might join organisations due to their parents' ideological affiliations but by the time one reaches about 16, one should be in a position to judge whether the political views of that particular organisation are acceptable or not, and if they choose to remain a member of the organisation then they have to accept how this reflects on their political views.

I wholeheartedly agree with whoever it was who said that Betar types make it difficult for Jews who disagree with Israeli foreign policy. When I was much younger and a member of Bnei Akiva (a Jewish youth group) and I told people I didn't agree with the occupation I was frequently asked questions like "why are you a self-hating Jew?" and "do you deny the holocaust?".

Among Jewish organsations, in my experience, being against Israeli foreign policy is often confused with (or deliberately branded as) anti-semitism.

[nicky g]

"During the restoration of the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, the overwhelming impression of Western visitors in the nineteenth century was that there were few Arab inhabitants."

It has been explained to you time and time again that organised census data from this time contradicts those Westerners' "impressions." That there were no local borders, currency etc is becuse at the time Palestine, along with the entire Arab world, was part of the Ottoman Empire. Presumably all of it was fair game for any foreigners deciding to establish pet project states in the region.

[Gamblor]

This is a great bipartisan peacenik site co-authored by Arab and Israeli webmasters.

MidEastWeb (http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm)

The population of Ottoman "Palestine" is difficult to estimate, because:

1. There was no administrative district of Palestine. Turkish census figures were for various districts, including the Jerusalem, Acco and Nablus districts for example. The Acre district included areas in Lebanon, outside the modern borders of Palestine in which there were no Jews.

2. Turkish census figures did not include Bedouins (estamted at a few thousand) and foreign subjects, of which there were about 10,000 Jews.

3. Both Arabs and Jews avoided the Turkish census. Foreigners who were without residence permits did not want to make their presence known. Arabs and Jews wished to avoid taxes and conscription.

[nicky g]

"The population of Ottoman "Palestine" is difficult to estimate, because:

1. There was no administrative district of Palestine. Turkish census figures were for various districts, including the Jerusalem, Acco and Nablus districts for example."

Clearly insurmountable obstacles for a modern day researcher.

"2. Turkish census figures did not include Bedouins (estamted at a few thousand) and foreign subjects, of which there were about 10,000 Jews.

3. Both Arabs and Jews avoided the Turkish census. Foreigners who were without residence permits did not want to make their presence known. Arabs and Jews wished to avoid taxes and conscription. "

Yas... so the preexistent population was even bigure than the censuses would have suggested.

[Gamblor]

Yas... so the preexistent population was even bigure than the censuses would have suggested.

And yet, still all those explorers didn't find any people.

In a 60,000 sq. km area, there was estimated to be less than 500,000 people.

That's 8ish people per square kilometer. Hardly a well-entrenched indigenous population.

[nicky g]

500,000 people sounds like plenty to me, especially for the time and given that most of them would have been concentrated in the same areas people are now (given that much of the place is desert). Clealy not "a land without a people." How entrenched they were has nothing to do with how many of them there were.

[Gamblor]

500,000 people sounds like plenty to me, especially for the time and given that most of them would have been concentrated in the same areas people are now

The tiny populations you're talking about were entrenched mainly in Yaffa, Haifa, Tzfat, Jerusalem, Beer Sheva, and Teverya. All of these cities, with the exception of Yaffa and Teverya, had continuous Jewish populations since ancient times, and still contain significant Arab populations.

However, most Israeli towns were established by the Zionists through legal and ethical land purchases, (i.e. Ra'a'nana, Tel Aviv, Eilat, etc. etc) and since the Arab populations were concentrated in the cities listed in the previous paragraph, the new cities were necessarily established on relatively empty land.

In fact, the name Tel Aviv means "Springtime (Aviv) Sand dune (Tel)". Hardly a name that implies any sort of population development in the area.

Again, each of the above cities still contains significant Arab populations. However, major Jewish historical and religious cities like Nablus (Sh'Chem) (burial site of Joseph), Gaza City (burial site of Samson/Delilah), Hevron (Burial site of the founders of Judaism: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, plus their wives) and Jericho (the first city Joshua conquered upon the return to Israel from Egypt), are now Jew-free.

Let's re-examine who got the raw deal.

[hackermike]

i think isreal is pretty shitty. I think that the jews should have a country, but it isnt fair to make the palestinians live in refugee camps while the jew are living the high life. The isrealies are demolsihing refugee camps so they can build nice apartment complexes while the palestinians die. for the record, i am not jewish or arab or middle eastern, but i am a human an i think all humans should get to live and have food and shelter and pride.

[Dr Wogga]

......let's stop dancing, OK? You are an anti-semite bigot. You have had a position 100% consistent with denouncing Israel at every turn and promoting the virtues of all things arabic or muslim. I would bet both my nuts that you cheered right along with your palestinian derelicts as the twin towers fell on 9/11. You sir are an out and out supporter of terrorism. And you sir, are a most vile creature. Long live the great nations of the United States and Israel.

[Gamblor]

It's American Mid-East policy that must be approved by Israel and not the other way around.

That is hilarious.

300 million people and their government, with a GDP of literally trillions of dollars and total dominance of the entire world through a Borg military, and 5 million Jews are in control.

Protocols.

Maybe Dr. Wogga is right.

After all, the only Jews you laud, your version of the "standard bearers" for the real values of Judaism, are the ones who sit idly by and just whine about their discontent of Israeli policy, while their countrymen get blown to smithereens.

I've said it before: In your mind, the Jews are only good Jews if they sit and die quietly in the corner.