Fold or Charge them?

Think about this one.....


You ever sit there patient enough....like me...

and now...it hits you...you get dealt AsAd.


YES....it doesn't matter what limit you are playing....but what matters is the amount of people in the hand.....


Let's say there are two limpers to you.....

You open raise...and the BB calls...as do the limpers....


Here comes the flop.....


10c 7c 8h.


They all check to you..what is your play?

Mind you...they all checked to the raiser.

Flop: Jh Th 7s

Flop: Kh Qh Ts

Flop: 7h 8h 5d

Flop: 4c 5c 6s

Flop: 9c Tc 8d

Yeah, when you have Aces and are checked to with a possible straight on the board, you should always fold.


Is there a point to this question? Of course you bet this.

If checked to you, bet!

Is this a trick question?


Your subject implies that you might fold with AA for no bets on the flop when last to act?


Without thinking too hard about it, I'm going to say I would not fold here. /images/smile.gif


Did you mean to ask, "Check or make them pay"?

Please tell me why you should be in this situation.


I apologize for the title of the post, it should be, "Bet to Charge them or Check?"


now....why should you bet?

MOM: Johnny, don't put your hand on the hot skillet.


JOHNNY: Why not?


MOM: Because those molecules are moving a lot faster than the ones in your hand.


JOHNNY: Huh?


MOM: Because it'll hurt real bad.


JOHNNY: Huh?


MOM: Because I said don't do it!

Bet of course. You don't want to give free cards, you likely have the best hand, AND the hand will be much easier to play if you bet the flop. Think about it.


Jeff

Allow me to give my reasons why I would check on the button with AdAs on this particular board and not bet the flop.


There are many cards that can beat you if they come up on the turn


Any 9 4 cards

Any J 4 cards

Any T 3 cards

Any 6 4 cards

Any C 6 cards


so....that's a total of....21 cards, that can dampen your chances of winning this thing....


Now what your job is to catch your remaining outs perfectly......but wait.....I still haven't told you why you should check and not bet....


There are 4 BB in the pot, let's say you are playing 10-20.


Now there is $80 in the pot.

A $10 bet from you will not scare anyone, it may infact create a larger pot. Chances are if there are 4 people in this pot, it has hit at least one of them, just becaues they checked doesn't mean that they don't have anything.


Now think about it, you are betting $10 into $80, who are you scaring, it would be correct now to draw to just about anything, because it'll increase the pot and they have two chances to catch.


But if you check......and a non scare card comes, plus with the added equity of seeing what the action is in front of you, you have a better chance of winning this pot.


On the turn now, if a scare card comes, you can easily get away from this hand, even though by betting you are charging them for their draw, it's still correct for them to call.


But if you check the flop and have the equity of seeing what the action is in front of you, then you can make a better decision on this hand at turn, plus you may be able also to induce a bluff, which in return is more profitable.


Plus now, if it gets checked to you again, and you bet, you are making it $20 to win $100 so drawing to some other hands that these opponnnets may have will also become incorrect and their pot odds are diminished.


-Do you see my point?

FLARE AWAY!


-that is why for

[now....why should you bet?]


Because I want people paying me as much money as possible when I have the best hand and I want to find out as cheaply as possible when I don't.

Boy, where do I start.


OK, I'll assume this is a serious hypothetical question you're posing and give you a serious answer.


Why do you bet this? To protect your hand, get people with worse hands to pay you off, get hands that can draw out on you to fold, and help find out where you stand. By checking you do nothing but increase your chances of losing. Playing as you suggest is a sure way to either get drawn out on or make the minimum amount of money with winning hands.


What hands do you think:


1) Limp in

2) Call a raise

3) Get a piece of this flop

4) Don't bet

5) Call your bet


Or maybe they all flopped a straight or two pair and are waiting to check-raise?


Many of the turn cards you fear don't make sense. A 10 definitely doesn't hurt you if there are 3 of them left. And what 10 didn't bet? The 9 only hurts you if you let the 6 and J have a free swing at their gutshot. I could go on.


But guess what? Any 4 hurts you if someone has 56 or 44. A 5 hurts you if someone has 55 or 64. A 2 hurts you if someone has 22. A Q hurts you if someone decided to take a look with Qh8h.


Why let someone catch their trips, gutshot straight or second pair? Why let one big club stick around to catch runner-runner clubs? Why let QK stick around to catch a J on the turn and an Ace on the river?


Just as importantly, you want to get people who have a pair of 10s or a pair of 8s to pay you off. You can't make money with winning hands unless you bet them, and isn't that why we play?


[Now what your job is to catch your remaining outs perfectly]


No, THEY have to catch outs perfectly. You already have a hand!


[Chances are if there are 4 people in this pot, it has hit at least one of them, just becaues they checked doesn't mean that they don't have anything.]


The game is all about information. It's not "4 people in the pot." It's 4 people in the pot and 3 have checked. You're right, it doesn't mean they don't have anything, but what do you think it could mean?


[Now think about it, you are betting $10 into $80, who are you scaring, it would be correct now to draw to just about anything, because it'll increase the pot and they have two chances to catch.]


Calling $10 bets with $80 pots with a "draw to just about anything" because "you have two chances to catch" is a sure way to lose all your money.


[But if you check......and a non scare card comes]


If you check, EVERYTHING becomes a scare card. If you bet, I'm worried about far fewer cards and can be much more aggressive on the turn and river.


[On the turn now, if a scare card comes, you can easily get away from this hand]


Excellent. I'll take this pot down from you every time with my Ah7h when a club comes on the turn.

you could actually wait til the turn. if a club comes or a 9 you may get away from the hand depending on whos betting if anyone.


your analysis in your 'what i would do' is right on. you have to wait for the spot to force players to fold by cutting their odds. the best scenario is if a blank hits and someone bets into you on the turn. this is almost a textbook example in some book i read once.


this works much better in a loose passive game, where they may chase more. in a tighter game, you might want to bet the flop if you think you could win it there, but with chasers, id wait.


by betting and if many call, your giving them odds for a turn call too, even if marginal.


b

but remember that if a blank comes, and someone bets, your raising the turn.


cant believe noone else sees this. as this is almost a TEXTBOOK example. though it's more effective on some tables to bet the flop, this play has many merits that many missed.


mikey explained it very well.


your not 'protecting' anything by betting the flop here. but your losing an extra sb that you dont have to when a scare card hits the turn.


however, i do prefer 1 or 2 more pre callers to do this play, its viable with this many also. this is about the minimum i would do it with.


b

I thought I was going nutz for a second...

My understanding of correct use of this play is that the pot is much, much bigger on the flop, making it correct for just about everything to take a card off. In this case, yeah the pot is big, but not big enough where everyone is going to the river with anything. The infinite odds you give in Mikey's spot hurts you more because you will be giving away some pots to opponents who would or should have folded to a flop bet and now pick up a redraw.


Allan

"Do you see my point?"


yes it's basically a botched attempt at restating what slansky and malmuth state on pages 170-72 of hold em poker for advanced players, a book you clearly have not read or else you wouldnt think that "your" idea here is new and exciting.


you need to buy this book and read and reread it along with many other 2+2 books and stop wasting your time thinking all this stuff on you own. somebody else already thought it up for you and presented it in a much more clear and useful manner.

[you could actually wait til the turn. if a club comes or a 9 you may get away from the hand depending on whos betting if anyone]


Like I said in my initial response, when the club comes I'm betting out with my pair of 7s. Thanks for the pot.


[by betting and if many call, your giving them odds for a turn call too, even if marginal]


What makes you think many will call the flop bet? Which hands do these people have that limped, called a raise, would call a flop bet, and would fold to a turn bet?

I want the draws to pay me off, not get a free shot then fold on the turn.


I want the second and third best hands to pay me off.


I don't want to get easily bluffed out of this pot.


I suspect Bernie and Mikey get hit with a lot of bad beats where people catch runner-runner outs.

but why is everyone saying to bet out?


Obviously I'm not the only one who hasn't read the book, I have.....read the book, but I haven't given this subject much though.....plus it doesn't go into much detail.


-But thanks I'll take a look at it again.


you said, you would bet out with your pair of 7's lol, into who.....into me or into 3 opponnents, i'm sure one of them would love to see your flush, or straight, and who knows they might have one too for you to see as well......after all, you did check the flop didn't you?

"you said, you would bet out with your pair of 7's lol,"


no i didnt. what are you talking about?


everyone saying to bet is wrong. you want to check and then charge draws two big bets when someone bets into you on the turn. a lot of people on here dont follow the advice of hpfap very well at all.

"Like I said in my initial response, when the club comes I'm betting out with my pair of 7s. Thanks for the pot"


first off, its not an auto fold. and id like to see ya after your raised on the turn. which sometimes id do also to test you. but if someone raises before the action gets to me, i have a safe fold and youve blown a BB. thats a great way to blow a big bet for nothing. better have a good read on the other players in...im sure youd also bet this with a safe card too.


"What makes you think many will call the flop bet? Which hands do these people have that limped, called a raise, would call a flop bet, and would fold to a turn bet?"


2ndly...i also said it was optional here. id alter it with this many players in as this is the minimal id try it. it also depends on the table texture if theyre chasing alot. i believe i stated that. better reread that will ya. you obviously dont understand the concept. since its been stated in this thread almost verbatim from the respected text it came from...or did you not make it past basic flop play? this isnt an ABC concept.


the idea isnt necesarily to fold them on the turn, but to charge them more and cut their odds.

your trying to fold anyone who caught a pair, who would have the odds to call a flop bet to hit 2 pair. THOSE your trying to fold, while charging the draws the max...


you say you want to charge the draws....your leaving some bets on the table by always betting the flop here. especially when someone bets into you from EP and you get callers inbetween. when they check to you on the turn youll gain a whole 1.5 bb....wow....thats alot. if someone bets into you on the turn, and you raise, youve now charged them 2bb. much better


it does work better with more players in. 3 opponents would be my minimum to use it. but even then, im altering based on the players tendencies...


this move can save alot of chips, while gaining alot of chips. its a fantastic concept. id suggest looking into it and expanding your game.


b

sorry Mike 1. I meant that post for Ulysses.

[you said, you would bet out with your pair of 7's lol, into who.....into me or into 3 opponnents, i'm sure one of them would love to see your flush, or straight, and who knows they might have one too for you to see as well......after all, you did check the flop didn't you?]


It all depends on position, reads, and opponents. At the limits I play (6/12 and 15/30) I find flush draw to be one of the easiest reads to make. If I haven't put anyone on flush draw, yes, I'll bet this and often take down the pot. Especially against passive opponents who always check a four flush and bet it when it hits.

Bernie, I understand the concept you're going for just fine. Here's where we disagree. 4BB in the pot on a very dangerous flop. In most of my games, I can limit the field with a flop bet without losing many who might pay me off on the turn.


However, I agree with one main point you clarify in your response. If these opponents are going to chase for anything, then yes, a check makes sense for the reasons you state.

another reason they may call is that they may just see it as a position bet. you are the last to act, which gives them more reason to call the flop bet.


b

I can't see any SENSIBLE reason why you will not bet in any of the flops you listed. You have THE BEST starting hand, and everyone checked to you. If you cannot bet out with AA, what will you bet out when checked too? Have you experience so much bad beats that you are playing scared? Do you know how to avoid bad beat? STOP PLAYING and take chess or checkers instead.


Bet the damn hand and assess the situation on the turn!


You remind me of the little boy who, after hearing some ghost stories or watching a scary movie, can't sleep and keep on looking under his bed.


Your posts are getting so bizarre that I think you are ON TILT when making them.


Get back to reality if you want to be a good poker player.

"Get back to reality if you want to be a good poker player"


how narrowminded is your game? just how 'good' are you to totally brush off a very valid concept?


reality is planning ahead with different ways of playing a hand given the situation. not just playing for the betting round only. mikeys points were well made.


for further 'sensible' reasons, read my responses. if you dont agree that it's an option, and that its a bizarre play, or a tilt play, you oughtta study a little more. you may be suprised at who put this concept in print.


note i said 'option'...not routine. im sure youll miss it. most do.


it amazes me how many absolutely disagree with this play. like theyve never been past ABC play 101. but thats fine, more chips for us who broadened our games and see a wider field of valid plays.


see ya at the checkers table...


b

Your posts are among the ones I found insightful, thought-provoking, funny at times and yet, they help me improve my game.


I may came in too hard on Mikey with my reply and I apologize to Mikey for that. I just would like emphasize the fact that in the hands that Mikey cited - there are 6 of them where there are both straight and flush draws. I will bet on them nearly 100% of the time if my opponents checked to me BTF especially with my PF raise with AA, the exception being if I would like to vary my play. Why? I would like to charge all the drawing hands and possibly make the gutshots drawers fold especially if they understand the concept of not drawing if the odds are incorrect. Remember, his original question is what action to take on the flop if the opponents all checked to him. By checking, he is giving his opponents a free card to catch any of those 21 cards that he is worried about in his original posts.


I agree with you that it is an option but I can't think of any situation right now when I am going to exercize it. Maybe you can cite a specific exaample where I may learn something from.


What would you gain by checking? Invite a headache and get someone with a JX, A6, AT or similar hands draw for free? I don't think so.


Incidentally, where will the World Series of Checkers be held?


Still like your posts :>))

sorry, i get aggravated at times when i see that many blast someone who has a very valid point. and this is a concept in which i explored quite a bit and made alot of chips and SAVED alot of chips with. the saving part is also key...


its one thing to not understand when to use it, but its another thing to condemn it altogether.


"I agree with you that it is an option but I can't think of any situation right now when I am going to exercize it. Maybe you can cite a specific exaample where I may learn something from"


this hand was an example...but ill plagiarize a little to give one....this kind of goes against my rule of referencing, but what the hell...


"loose game...you have AA on button, many players in, the pot is very large...flop comes Jc 8s 7d..


they all check to you. teh play is to also check. then when someone bets on 4th street, you raise---unless a T or 9 comes off." ---S&M


when i 1st learned this concept, i overused it a little while learning the spots to use it. but by varying your play with it, even when the pot has only say 4BB, it helps create spots.


many think that charging on every street is the best way to maximize the charging the draws...thats not necesarly the case. you may not be collecting as much WHILE giving them odds to even marginally chase. even if someone bets into you here and you get callers between you, can call then blast the turn. which many times 'charges' them an extra sb. so if 3 players call that extra, thats a 1.5bb gain.


your flop bet isnt stopping that turn card from coming....many mistakenly think any flop bet is a huge show of power. a button pre raiser and a checked to, last to act bettor isnt that powerful. unless your a very overtight raiser. and when theyre getting 9-1 on the call, theyre right to call for their kicker hitting. mind you, thats the first caller. if everyone calls, the last guy is getting about 11-1. but even if it misses, you still have the main draws to contend with. the ones you 'know' are going to the river with it.


believe it or not, sometimes you can make a better hand fold at times with this...a small bonus when that happens.


once you realize how much more your charging in certain situations by waiting for the turn, youll use it a little more.


add up the bets your collecting per player with different LIKELY scenarios...you may be suprised...


im not saying its wrong to bet the flop, im saying that there are different ways to explore.


think of it backwards...sometimes by betting/raising the flop here you may cost yourself bets, WHILE not protecting your hand in the best spot to cut the odds. which is when the bets double on the turn...


"Your posts are among the ones I found insightful, thought-provoking, funny at times and yet, they help me improve my game"


good to hear that some of what i post helps someone...thanks. many on here think im full of it. oh well... screw em i say... /images/wink.gif


i wouldnt make it past the quarterfinals in checkers....too complicated of a game for me...


have a good one...


b