Mirage 10-20: I really hate that turn card

This hand came up during my first orbit at the table. The first 5 hands I observed were rockish. Either the blinds chopped, somebody stole the blinds, or somebody won a small pot with a flop bet. Of course, as soon as I get my first good hand, everybody decides to loosen up.


UTG opens with a raise. I'm 2UTG with QhQd and make it 3 bets. Next two players call 3 bets cold. The rest fold to Pokerbabe in the big blind who calls (Babe, you do way too much of that!). UTG calls. 5 players see the flop for 3 bets.


The flop is: 8c,7s,3c


Pokerbabe checks. UTG bets. I raise. Next two players call. Pokerbabe calls (and again!). UTG calls.


The turn is: 8c,7s,3c,Kc


It's checked to me.


What should my plan be?

Check. Hate that card. Does the Babe defend her blinds with almost anything?

No Cat- I don't defend my blinds with anything. I do defend my blinds with pocket pairs in the "playing zone" however "depending" on who is in the hand and how much money is in the pot. In this unfortunate case, my pair was third. Yuck. Babe

No free cards. I don't see why the flop cold callers or the people in front should have a king -- And I'm not convinced that the flush draw is out there, with 5-way action I'd expect it to get more exciting on the flop. Folds may open outs and even give you club outs. Failing to bet could cost you a very large pot.


I'd be a policeman here if a raise made it heads-up, otherwise I'd look to dump to a raise.

That's a bitch, man. Do you have any idea of your opponents likely holdings? Would you consider checking and going for a CR? If someone comes back over the top or it gets back to you at two bets, you could fold. Checking seems like the wrong play here. If the table is aggressive at all, they will put you to a decision. How would your CR be recieved? It might be troubling. You could be CRing with a made flush, or you might have pocket Kings. Now if the board pairs they have that to chew on too. I think CRing is the strongest play. Do you think it might pay dividends later on if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar on this hand?

Checkraising is really bad. This is not the type of play that gets people to laydown hands, its the type of play that gets people to pay off.

With 3 callers 'all the way' do you think they all have straight draws? Plus, considering the fact that you don't have a club. what can you do if a club comes on the river? Not to mention the fact that a K anywhere has you beat. The K of clubs compromised your hand. Check and fold to a bet.

I would check, and see how it goes, that turn card is horrible, and with all those cold callers it seems very unlikely that your hand is good...


I don't see a bet accomplishing much because since the pot is now huge you aren't going to get significant value out of people laying down draws or hands that have you beat...


Shawn Keller

Dynasty,


Since you didnt get re-raised preflop I don't think that the initial bettor has Kings or AK. Hopefully the initial raiser had Jacks or AQ off.


The third suit on the board would concern me, however I would bet to see where I stood. I don't think a check-raise would be in order here. However if you bet and the initial raiser now check-raises you, what would you do?


I would bet the turn and if I didnt get raised I would bet the river if a brick hits. I think you had the best hand.


MK

Bet. The chances that you're still ahead are high. You do not want to give a free card to someone with a club. If you get raised, you have to call(because of both flush and straight possibilities one of them may try to semi-bluff check-raise you). If no clubs comes off on the river, call a bet, but raise for value if checked into.

I would check probably about %95 of the time here, considering that I am up against five opponents who called three bets each before the flop, and two bets on the flop. Making matters worse, you are stuck right in the middle of the pack...although the first couple players checked to you, you have no idea what is to come behind you. With a turn card this scary, and with that many opponents, I'm with Ronm here and support a check and fold to any signifigant action. Yes, you might give a free card to a hand like AcQd, but at this point -you- may need a free card to make the best hand (spiking a queen), provided that you are not already drawing dead. I do not think you should bet here to see where you stand...if the game is as tight as you say, the players in the hand will let you know where they stand.

With 3 people coldcalling your raise (and the other guy betting and calling your raise) in a tight game, you are done for. Checkfold. Not all of them have T9 offsuit.

"I do defend my blinds with pocket pairs in the

"playing zone" however "depending" on who is in the hand and how much money is in the pot."


IMO, it can't be correct to throw away 22 in the blinds for a raise no matter if it's headsup or if the whole field is in. If it's 3 bets, that's a different story.

I've got QhQd.


I checked the turn and the two players behind me checked as well.


The river is: 8c,7s,3c,Kc,4h


Pokerbabe checked. UTG bet. I called. Player on my left called. Next player folded. Pokerbabe folded.


UTG barely wanted to show his hand knowing "he had to be beat". He had JJ. Player on my left had an 8 (didn't see the other card). So, my QQ held up.


Pokerbabe mentioned above that she had the 3rd best pair. So, I guess she called two flop bets cold with either TT or 99. That's a tough spot for her to be in. Eh, she still cold-calls too much and doesn't 3-bet enough. C'mon Babe, 3-bet with those AK's! /images/smile.gif

Are you saying she plays like a girl? /images/wink.gif

On the turn when if you are beat you have virtually no outs I would be more inclined to bet.

If I have the Queen of clubs than I think checking

becomes a better play because I hate to have to

put in two big bets on a draw.


Bruce

I think weak players will pay off the checkraise. I agree that against a low limit lineup, this play would be suicide. Against players that are willing to lay down a hand, it might work. I would really hope that it checks around, but check calling would really bother me. I would need the perfect lineup to try this play and I would hope to not see this situation again soon.

On the turn when if you are beat you have virtually no outs I would be more inclined to bet.


I'll rephrase what your wrote by saying "On the turn, when you may be ahead but have virtually no outs if behind, I would be more inclined to bet."


I'd didn't like my turn check. But, at the time, I felt the pot was big enough that I wanted to get to the showdown if nobody showed any strength after my turn check.


Strangely, I was sure I had UTG beat, so I should have raised the river just in case somebody with 2-pair could be pressured into folding with the dangerous board. Or, at least to get 2 bets out of the JJ (and maybe the /images/glasses.gif.

Is the Babe that much of a calling station? I think your turn check allowed the player with the jacks to hang himself with a river bet.


That would be quite a play--raising on the river.

I like your paraphrase better.


Another important point is your response if the

Babe bets and UTG gets frisky and raises. You

are now in a real difficult spot. By betting the turn this now becomes an unlikely scenario and you

have put yourself in a position where it is difficult to be outplayed.


Bruce

Catsclaw- first of all, I've played with Dynasty about 5-6 times tops, and so he has a very limited sample of my playing style. As for calling 3 bets "cold", in the hand under discussion, I was in the bb so already had one bet in the pot. I belive there were 11 bets in already when it got back to me and with this type of action, and my pocket pair, I thought an additional 2 bets was not unreasonable. DO YOU? If so, please tell me why. I dislike my position more than I dislike the call in this case. Anyway, Since Dynasty routinely 3 bets hands like A,K, why would I automatically put him on a higher pair than mine and fold here? And...since I know nothing about utg AND the other "cold callers", do I automatically assume they are holding some monster hand that I am a dog to btf? Additionally, the other guys do not 4 bet behind Dynasty, so certainly I do not put them on AA or KK. I liked the flop alot and checked to watch the action after me (a bet here does nothing to thin the field and since I am trying to see one more card, I don't want to pay another bet to do so if I'm raised). In retrospect, a check raise MAY have been the better play. Since Dynasty does not reraise the UTG player after he bets , I immediately decided to check raise the turn unless an A,K or Q showed. The suit was not an issue for me but the King was a card I could not beat so I checked again. With 4 others behind me, I did (incorrectly) assume somebody has a K. Getting the freebie was nice there, but without improvement on the river, I check folded, and my hand was 3rd best. If you would like to critique my play, that is fine. If you would like to make generalizations about my play based on remarks by others, that is fine too. Babe

I wasn't being critical of your play. Sorry if my post was offensive to you. Dynasty likes to boast about certain things.


Michael Low

Dynasty DID raise the UtG player after the flop. I was incorrect in my post regarding this. I also forgot to mention that I had black nines, and so I had more outs than Dynasty thought. Next time Dynasty makes it 3 before the flop, perhaps I will hit one of those outs and then I can tell a good story about how he called me and lost the hand /images/wink.gif /images/biggrin.gif Babe

Cat- thanks. I don't mind constructive criticism. How would you have played the hand with all those bets in btf? And..with a backdoor straight draw on the flop? And...with a flush out after the turn? Lots of money in there and perhaps I got a little excited? /images/smile.gif Babe

Like the way I played 5-4 of diamonds yesterday (see post above).


Pot size can get you sucked into some dubious calls.

Bet... Following HPFAP "Important Fourth Street Concepts" p. 139 you should tend to check hands with outs and to bet hands that if already beaten, have no outs. This hand supports betting on the turn and folding of raised.

I don't know if you could have won the pot due to UTG's JJ but you definately could have gotten me to fold. If I had bet the turn and you checkraised dispite the presence of the Kc, I was outta there. UTG would have had a tough time calling with JJ because I don't think he had the Jc.


Your call with 9c9s pre-flop is defiantely correct. I'd also make it everytime.


I'm not so sure about the flop call of two bets. With a pre-flop raiser and 3-bettor, it's hard to believe the 9c will be good if runner-runner clubs comes. When UTG bet the 8-high flop, I was sure he had top pair beat so I thought he had TT-QQ (not KK or AA since he didn't 4-bet). Therefore, most times I think you're drawing to a two-outer for a set plus a backdoor straight draw (if a J or T hits on the turn, UTG may have a set reducing your outs). I don't think that's enough to call on the flop despite your overpair.


You also could have gotten me to fold if you bet the flop, called the inevitable flop raise, and then bet the turn when another club came. There were many ways you could have taken this pot away from me.


P.S. You still cold-call pre-flop raises way too much. A large sample size isn't necessary to pick up on that.