Final table hand

[LKJ]

Party Poker $30+3 multi-table tournament, 930 entered, we're down to the final table, 9 players left. Blinds are 4000-8000, no antes, I've got T92,500, which is good for 3rd or 4th place on the table.
I'm dealt 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB. Folded around to me. I limp; the aggressive BB, who has me covered by a small amount, raises the minimum to 16,000. I call 8000 more.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I check, BB bets the minimum of 8000, I raise to 16,000, he calls.

Turn: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I push my remaining 62,500 in.

Thoughts or comments?

[0evg0]

I'd like to see the thoughts on here as well, but here's my take..

Preflop I probably would've reraised his min-raise. Chances are he's got nothing but a couple of overs, and unless he's ready to gamble (you just said aggressive, not crazy) he'll fold it right there - and 22 is one hand you don't want to see the flop with.

Anyway, once you've decided to call him preflop, I don't like your min-raise at all. Ask yourself, what purpose does it serve? First, it'd make me think that more likely than not you are not playing the draw. Also, if I'm him, I'm obviously doubting the 9 - why would you only min raise if you have the TP, but a low one that could very easily get caught by what I still expect to be 2 face cards.

As for the push, I've already said why I'd doubt you caught either the 3rd 9 or the flush, but the push does force him to have made something, because even a call with AK here would obviously have him well behind.

What was the result?

[LKJ]

I correctly put him on overcards...unfortunately those overcards were the A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif.
He calls, I don't catch any of my four outs, I finish in 9th place.

[LKJ]

How much do you think I should've reraised his minimum preflop raise? I really was clueless on what to do at this stage...against a BB that had me covered, I really didn't want it folded around to me.

I agree that the size of my flop checkraise was silly. I called preflop intending to checkraise any ragged flop, but I should've raised more. My flop play is where I really think I screwed the hand up, although from a results-oriented standpoint, I'm not completely sure I could've forced him out at any point no matter what I did.

[0evg0]

Yeah, kinda figured that - why else would you be posting if he folded? Sorry man, hate when that happens, but I think he could have just as easily had JKo right there...

[0evg0]

Honestly, I would've just considered a push after his min-raise preflop. You're in the danger zone with barely 11xBB left, and unless there's a big difference between 9th place money and 8th place (of course not) or there were a number of stacks shorter than yours, you probably won't be seeing a lot of chances better than heads up with a PP. Without knowing his cards, the min-raise preflop just looks like a weak attempt at the steal. Unless you knew him to be a good enough player to do that with AKc, I don't think a push is a bad idea. Unless you suspect he has a PP as well, you are at the very worst at an even 50/50 (which of course was the case /images/graemlins/frown.gif).

You can't worry about what he did have this hand, because he could have just as easily had AKh, AKs, or AKd and you'd have won the hand by just playing it a little differently (or even the way you did).

[Roman]

calling his min raise is terrible in this position, you wont be happy on any non-set flop. I raise to 24k when passed to me, and I call depending on how many chips he has and how aggressive he is.

[patrick dicaprio]

if the BB has you covered and you are the SB you have to be concerned that you can get knocked out here. i would raise here out of the SB and if called i would check and fold on the flop unless it looked good. you are out of position against one of the few guys that can knock you out and 22 is a dog to hands like KQs which he can easily have. 22 is a tough hand to play on the flop for a lot of chips.

going all in here on the turn is a disaster. i cant believe how many times i see players make this move and get beaten. if he doesnt have a flush draw then betting a small amout will likely get the job done. if you bet all in you will only be called when beaten, as happened here. it is one thing to move in on the flop when there is still the possibility that he will fold because he is on a draw but once a third club comes and you bet all in he isnt calling without a hand that beats you.

Pat

[Deelah]

I think the limp is fine, looking to hit a set on the flop and maybe double up. But once he raises preflop you should fold. This hand is unplayable on the flop if you miss the set. You don´t want to go up against the chipleader without position with such a bad hand. The play the rest of the hand is just suicide..

Look for a better spot.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker $30+3 multi-table tournament, 930 entered, we're down to the final table, 9 players left. Blinds are 4000-8000, no antes, I've got T92,500, which is good for 3rd or 4th place on the table.
I'm dealt 2 2 in the SB. Folded around to me. I limp; the aggressive BB, who has me covered by a small amount, raises the minimum to 16,000. I call 8000 more.

Flop: 9 7 3
I check, BB bets the minimum of 8000, I raise to 16,000, he calls.

Turn: 9
I push my remaining 62,500 in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to be harsh, but this is pretty ugly IMO.

Preflop: Limping with a 22 first in from the SB is just bad. Unless you hit a 2 on the flop playing this hand is going to be very tough. What action you take is read-dependent, but in order of best to worst, and without any info on BB or the rest of the table: (1) raise 3xBB, (2) push,(3) fold, (4) call.

On the flop: What is a minraise into $40k flop going to accomplish? Are you trying to represent a preflop slow-played AA or KK? A set or two pair? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? This is the spot to either get out or push, with getting out the far better play. You have to ask yourself: what could BB have? The answer (thanks to your preflop limp) is: pretty much anything. If the BB's preflop minraise gives you any read at all, the read is probably: big pair. Get out.

turn: Now you have a flush to worry about as well, so you can safely . . . WHAT? C/R ALL IN!? What exactly do you put BB on here? What hand that you can beat and that will fold plays the hand the way BB has? None that I can think of. Maybe a horribly played A7 or 88?

Let me ask you, when you limped for 4000 did you really expect to put in all your chips unimproved on the turn? You're not THAT short stacked, there will be much better places to play those chips.

The good news is that BB played it even worse than you.

[LKJ]

No need to apologize, I want harsh...I'm still relatively inexperienced in big multi-table tournaments.

Anyway, thank you, your advice all makes a lot of sense and gave me a lot to think about in future situations like this. I'd add the caveat that I didn't checkraise all in on the turn, I acted first and pushed, which at least seems like it could represent a made flush draw (but my tiny checkraise on the flop didn't represent a 9 well at all).

Anyway, I agree that I didn't play it very well, and while 9th out of 930 was a solid showing, I was very disappointed at how the ending went down.

[gergery]

Congrats on getting to the final table! Feels good, doesn’t it?

I fold this preflop (maybe 60% of time). You are in 3-4th position, and 5 or 6 other people are going to be getting desperate before you so you are not close to shortstacked. You can comfortably wait 2 full orbits or more to get a hand you like better, and your cashEV goes up significantly every time someone else busts right now. Contrary to popular opinion, 22 is not a great hand, ranking only 88th vs. a random hand heads up, and a significant dog vs. the range of hands that would call you. You are AT BEST a coinflip here under any scenario.

If I were to play this (maybe 40% of time), its because I’m getting good fold equity -- my opponent is tight and/or defending not too much AND a min raise would be enough to get a fold. If I had to raise to 20 or 24k to get a fold at this table, then you might as well go all-in because then if he plays the pot is offering too much of an overlay to fold at that point and you might as well get maximum folding equity.

I don’t like limping preflop here at all – blinds are big and you want folding equity.

But once you did limp, I like the call of his minraise preflop. People who minraise tend to have fairly good hands here and expect you to call. Weaker hand would read you as weak and push allin. You are getting 4:1 on the call, and will flop a set and take his stack often enough to make this worthwhile. You’ll also get a favorable flop you can push overcards off of frequently enough to make this a net +EV move. Pushing in at this point is bad because you will rarely get him to fold and are just coinflipping or a dog then. Better to see a flop and let overcards miss, which they’ll do 2/3 of time.

On flop, minraising is terrible and just gives him a cheap shot to hit a card, just push-in. The 9 hi flop rates to have missed virtually all overcards, and someone who minraises a preflop limper could just as easily have overcards as have a bigpair, with overcards significantly more likely statistically. Once you’re here, folding is weak.

--Greg