Hand against ZeeJustin in PStars $500...

[cferejohn]

Blinds 10/20. I have KK in the SB. Zeejustin raises from the button to 60. I re-raise to 150. BB folds. ZeeJustin calls.

Flop is 789. I think there were two of a suit, but I don't remember. I bet 300. He calls. Turn is an offsuit J. I check. He bets 600. I fold.

How did I do? ZeeJustin, if you want to say what you had, cool. If not, also cool.

[ThingDo]

I'm confused. I don't understand the logic behind your turn fold. I'm open to hear why, I'm very curious.

[Paul2432]

I would raise more pre-flop perhaps to 250 and then overbet the pot on the flop. I don't like playing big pairs out of position with money left to bet, so I charge a big price to do so.

As far as your fold on the turn, not much you can do here. Unless you think he would bluff too much you have to fold.

Paul

[ThingDo]

Why do you have to fold? I'm still confused, please help

[dogmeat]

Probably just directed to Justin, but, what were the stacks like at this point? Button could be a steal with any hand. Why is this a fold on the turn? Why not a big bet on the flop? Based on the small info you gave, I say you gave this hand away.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably just directed to Justin, but, what were the stacks like at this point? Button could be a steal with any hand. Why is this a fold on the turn? Why not a big bet on the flop? Based on the small info you gave, I say you gave this hand away.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How is betting 300 into a pot of 320 "small"? Given that he called my raise, I put him on a medium pocket pair. Once the turn gave any T a straight, almost every hand I could put him on beat me.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to fold? I'm still confused, please help

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put him on that I beat?

[ThingDo]

I think the button raise could mean any number of things, personally I think zee has AJ and put you on a steal prelfop that you continued on the flop. After he calls your flop bet its easy to put in this kind of bet on the turn when a scare card comes. I think your check on the turn showed weakness, I think that if you bet here and he raises you you can fold your hand but otherwise I bet the turn and check call the river. I'm just not willing to give him credit for a T on the turn or even a flopped set. I think he'll raise this flop most of the time with a set here. Please correct me if my thinking is way off here.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the button raise could mean any number of things, personally I think zee has AJ and put you on a steal prelfop that you continued on the flop. After he calls your flop bet its easy to put in this kind of bet on the turn when a scare card comes. I think your check on the turn showed weakness, I think that if you bet here and he raises you you can fold your hand but otherwise I bet the turn and check call the river. I'm just not willing to give him credit for a T on the turn or even a flopped set. I think he'll raise this flop most of the time with a set here. Please correct me if my thinking is way off here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I think I should have bet the turn as well. Once I check it and he bets though, I don't see how I can continue the hand.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the button raise could mean any number of things, personally I think zee has AJ and put you on a steal prelfop that you continued on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say the chances of this early in the Party $500 are very, very, very slim. First, given the fact the two players know each other, I'm pretty sure cferejohn isn't making a steal attempt PF against Zee so early in the tournament.

Second, the chances of Zee just smooth calling the re-raise PF with AJ are pretty slim. What flop could you feel comfortable hitting with that hand besides a straight or trips?

The way the hand played out, with a call on the flop and pot sized bet on the turn, I'd imagine Zee would have had something like AA, QQ or JJ.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the button raise could mean any number of things, personally I think zee has AJ and put you on a steal prelfop that you continued on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second, the chances of Zee just smooth calling the re-raise PF with AJ are pretty slim. What flop could you feel comfortable hitting with that hand besides a straight or trips?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, given that my re-raise was fairly small, I think AJ was possible preflop. A9 and maybe A8 are possible as well (so is AT, which of course just beat me).

I think if I had bet out 600-800 on the turn, the hand would have played much easier.

[ThingDo]

Don't you think that he'll raise the flop w/ a set here? Its very connected and there is a 4 flush. Or perhaps he isn't raising it because its HU? What are the stack sizes btw? Is it 2,500 1,500 1,000 etc...

[davidross]

I believe your thinking is way off.

Of course Zee could raise from the button with anything, but he's not calling that flop bet with AJ. If he really put the guy on a steal, then he re-raises pre-flop. He is risking a lot betting that turn without a T because you know the guy in the blinds is checking that turn with a straight.

It is possible that Zee stole one here, but I believe he was ahead far more often than not.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think that he'll raise the flop w/ a set here? Its very connected and there is a 4 flush. Or perhaps he isn't raising it because its HU? What are the stack sizes btw? Is it 2,500 1,500 1,000 etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. We each have roughly starting stacks of 2500. I agree that a set might have raised the flop, though if he thinks I'm re-raising with a real hand (and I think he does), it's hard to imagine that flop hit me unless I had 99, or maybe 88. I really put him either a set or a hand with a T in it after the flop call.

[RPatterson]

[ QUOTE ]
Blinds 10/20. I have KK in the SB. Zeejustin raises from the button to 60. I re-raise to 150. BB folds. ZeeJustin calls.

Flop is 789. I think there were two of a suit, but I don't remember. I bet 300. He calls. Turn is an offsuit J. I check. He bets 600. I fold.

How did I do? ZeeJustin, if you want to say what you had, cool. If not, also cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't re-raise the minumum pre-flop. That is retarded.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blinds 10/20. I have KK in the SB. Zeejustin raises from the button to 60. I re-raise to 150. BB folds. ZeeJustin calls.

Flop is 789. I think there were two of a suit, but I don't remember. I bet 300. He calls. Turn is an offsuit J. I check. He bets 600. I fold.

How did I do? ZeeJustin, if you want to say what you had, cool. If not, also cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't re-raise the minumum pre-flop. That is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-read the post please. Re-raising the minimum would have been a raise to 100. 150 is, umm, more than that. That said, I realize that raise was a bit small.

[patrick dicaprio]

what you say might be true for weak players or a small buy in game, which I usually play in, but against good players folding is really the correct move I think once you have checked the turn.

Pat

[MLG]

checking the turn puts you in an awful spot here. I would have raised a bit more preflop (to about 200). On the flop I would have bet a little less. The more I play the less enamored I am of potting it on the flop. If you bet about 200 on the flop, you can bet about 400 on the turn. If he calls both those bets you know you are in trouble. By betting the pot on the flop you tie yourself to either a big big turn bet, or giving up on the hand while you still could be way way ahead. Not a fun hand, but I like to make em call two bets before I decide I can safely check fold.

[Potowame]

the only thing I would say you beat is QQ or AK of the flush draw, or total stone cold bluff. I have never played with Z so I have no clue of his playing style. but theres a very good chance he has a set or str8 or AA if he is slow playing it.

It may be one of those times that you don't tell anyone that you laydown a monster /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

by the way I didn't read the whole thread yet.

[eMarkM]

10th with 31 left!

[ZeeJustin]

You had me beat. I don't remember what I had though. What was the HH#? (Actually, It's not very relevant since I would have played any 2 cards that way postflop, but I'm sure people will be curious if I don't say anything).

[donny5k]

You beat a hand with 2 random cards in it? Because you did put him on a steal preflop right?
He could just as easily bet based on what he thinks you have. The jack is a scare card and hes betting it no matter what if you check I think because there's no way he thinks you have a ten with the way you played your hand.

[chuddo]

if you look at the hand from the other perspective, your hand looks very similar to how a lot of people would play AK or AQs out of the blinds to a button raise. zee may have had a hand like 55 or 66 and just wanted to take it down preflop, got raised from the blinds and called with position. flop brings no help to broadway cards and he has outs if you have a made monster that has him beat. turn check screams weakness so he figures you will be hard pressed to call with anything against such a coordinated board and, assuming zee has nothing, can safely fold when faced with a re-raise all in.

regardless of what actually happened, as others mentioned you could know a lot more about where you stand by re-raising more pre-flop and putting in 2/3rd pot bets on the flop and turn.

[mrbaseball]

So when he opened the door with the turn check you stepped right in. Great play. I hate checking. Almost always feels wrong to me unless I'm checkraising and even then it sometimes feels wrong. Betting is power!

[DOTTT]

I can understand the laydown, your put in a very tough spot if you bet out on the turn and get raised.

So is there a better way to play the hand? The only other option I see is check raising the flop, and even that's very tough to pull of in this spot. I guess this is just one of those terrible flops you get when you have KK.

[berya]

Excellent post top to bottom IMO.

[SossMan]

you should have printed up one of your patented "liscense to steal" certificates with that turn check.
I think preflop is okay, since I don't mind keeping the pot smaller than normal if I'm out of position w/ relatively deep stacks.
Flop bet is ok.
2/3 turn bet out would be better and folding to just about any raise.

[ZeeJustin]

I'm curious what I had!

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious what I had!

[/ QUOTE ]

I never got the hand history. Just posted it on a break from memory. Sorry...

[SmileyEH]

That will learn your 11 tabling ways!

-SmileyEH

[Tosh]

Just request HH for the whole tournament, shouldn't be hard to find as it was near the start.

[ZeeJustin]

*********** # 7 **************
PokerStars Game #651796457: Tournament #2345947, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2004/08/29 - 16:35:34 (ET)
Table '2345947 41' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: cferejohn (2460 in chips)
Seat 2: Bestflyman (2110 in chips)
Seat 3: HEAT (2680 in chips)
Seat 4: MAD M3 (2490 in chips)
Seat 5: Wee Stinker (2470 in chips)
Seat 6: med54 (2390 in chips)
Seat 7: Berkshire (3370 in chips)
Seat 8: HULEWZ (2010 in chips)
Seat 9: ZeeJustin (2500 in chips)
cferejohn: posts small blind 10
Bestflyman: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ZeeJustin [As 9h]
HEAT: folds
MAD M3: folds
Wee Stinker: folds
med54: folds
Berkshire: folds
HULEWZ: folds
ZeeJustin: raises 40 to 60
cferejohn: raises 90 to 150
Bestflyman: folds
ZeeJustin: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [8h 7s 9c]
cferejohn: bets 300
ZeeJustin: calls 300
*** TURN *** [8h 7s 9c] [Jd]
cferejohn: checks
ZeeJustin: bets 600
cferejohn: folds
ZeeJustin collected 920 from pot
ZeeJustin: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 920 | Rake 0
Board [8h 7s 9c Jd]
Seat 1: cferejohn (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Bestflyman (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: HEAT folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: MAD M3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Wee Stinker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: med54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Berkshire folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: HULEWZ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ZeeJustin (button) collected (920)

[eMarkM]

I guess that's what happens when you're against a player with a good reputation. You get them to play all weak tight against you.