Have I become a chip-spewing idiot?

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

My introduction to Party 3/6 hasn't been very smooth, as I'm down approx. 25BB after 1,400 hands. Although this may all be due to variance, below are hands I played this morning that may represent some type of leak in my game. In hand 1, The only read I had at the time of this hand was that the SB was fishy with LAG tendencies. In hand 2, my opponent was a loose-passive who coldcalled liberally preflop and was usually weak-tight after the flop.


Hand 1:

Preflop: chesspain is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, chesspain calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB calls, chesspain calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, SB folds.

River: (11 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
chesspain checks, UTG checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11 BB, between CO, chesspain and UTG.</font>



Hand 2:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: chesspain is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, MP2 calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (10.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, chesspain folds.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 10.66 BB, won by MP2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.</font>

[Kluddeludde]

I would play them as you did.

Kludde

[Trix]

1) I dont see much value to the flop bet. I probably just check-call.
If I had check-called the flop and noone had shown strenght, then check-raising the turn is probably good as I think you can move him off JJ-KK.

I´m not sure why you bet the turn.

2) Unless the guy likes to raise the turn for a free showdown, then I dont like the turn 3bet.

[Aljechin]

Is it ok to call preflop with T5s?

[Michael Davis]

"In hand 2, my opponent was a loose-passive who coldcalled liberally preflop and was usually weak-tight after the flop."

Given this description, you shouldn't have threebet. You are 7-3 underdog against JT, probably his most likely holding, a 6-4 underdog against something like J9, and a coint toss against other hands including a jack. And of course he might have a straight or a set and cap it. Since it is unlikely the your pair outs (or at least all of them) are any good, you can just call the raise.

Did you think he might fold a jack to a threebet? If so, then it was worth it. I think you must have, since I know you know you're not a favorite in this hand despite your pretty draw.

-Michael

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

Given this description, you shouldn't have threebet. You are 7-3 underdog against JT, probably his most likely holding...

[/ QUOTE ]

A loose-passive would have to have top two-pair or better the majority of time in order to raise that turn?

[Michael Davis]

Someone described as weak-tight after the flop would.

-Michael

[MoDOH]

Hand1: I would muck this PreFlop... Since you didn´t I would play it the same...

Hand2: If your read on the guy is correct I don´t understand the 3-bet on the turn if you were planning to check-fold the river unimproved (edited). For the same cost it´s better to call-check-call and u at least get to see the guys cards...

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
My introduction to Party 3/6 hasn't been very smooth, as I'm down approx. 25BB after 1,400 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems I always lose when I start higher level. Don't worry about it, 25BB is small potatoes.

Hand 1: I like check/calling the turn. Did you think it unlikely CO would raise on the turn? If the turn gets checked thru you can bet the river.

Hand 2: I don't like 3-betting the turn here. I doubt many raisers would fold to a 3-bet here.

[Aljechin]

Chesspain, you didn't reply to my question. Maybe you have some kind of advanced reason why you were calling with T5s. If not, then this is potentially a very big leak indeed, if you do it regularly.

T5s is hand which goes under category "any suited". There's no good pair w/ good kicker making ability and no ability to make straights. You ONLY rely on its ability to make a flush. In this particular hand your contribution in the pot size is 1/8. You pay 1 to 7 just to make a flush.

If there are 5-6 limpers, and you were in LP, you would call with T5s if you only looked at the pot size vs what you contribute to the pot yourself (in comparison to this situation). However, "any suited" should not be played from LP under any conditions as far as I know. So it's not ok to play it from BB either.. Actually, it's even worse since you're out of position.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Chesspain, you didn't reply to my question. Maybe you have some kind of advanced reason why you were calling with T5s. If not, then this is potentially a very big leak indeed, if you do it regularly.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize I was at the beck-and-call of someone who had contributed a total of seventeen posts to this forum.

[Aljechin]

Sorry. I will leave this forum and never come back. I thought that pointing out the leak would actually be helpful

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I will leave this forum and never come back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't let the modem hit you on the way out.

[whiskeytown]

regarding the second hand...

I don't THINK you're get expectation to raise and reraise with it without two or more players in the pot - of course, a K or Q could give it to you as well, so I'd count 15 outs, but for the amount of times you'd complete vs. money in pot, I think you really need 2 or more people calling to make raising a profitable play....

make any sense?

RB

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

1) I dont see much value to the flop bet. I probably just check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see why Chesspain bet the flop. The PF raiser was in last position and he might just check behind some of the time if he raised PF with a pair less than aces or a KQ/KJ type of hand. Chesspain wants to get bets in on the flop here if everyone is going to call, the best way to know who is going to call is by betting and then if the CO raises then when the action is back to Chesspain he can see which players have put money in the pot so whether there is value to a 3-bet. To me it looks like there is given that UTG has already put money in on the flop, maybe I'm the chip spewing LAG. I mean I know it's not the nut flush draw but it's still going to win a helluva lot of the time.

Also if the CO doesn't raise the flop, some of the time Chesspain will be able to win the pot on the turn with a bet.

[tree_stump]

I like the raise in Hand 2, for this reason:

Yeah, he's behind, but I think chances are it's only to one pair, which means it almost a coin flip. The 3-bet on the turn means that the flush and straight are relatively disguised if they hit, and you may be able to get three more bets out of him on the river.

Yes, you're behind, but I think you win more when you hit than you lose when you miss... Any other thoughts?

[bisonbison]

I didn't realize I was at the beck-and-call of someone who had contributed a total of seventeen posts to this forum.

You've warmed my cockles.

[jacki]

HAND 1:
Preflop and flop are standard.
I don't like the turn bet.

HAND 2:
Even though you've got oodles of outs, I don't understand 3-betting the turn, unless you've got a read on him that he can lay down his hand here, which most party players won't after they've already raised.

[MercTec]

In hand 2, I think the 3 bet on the turn is fine. You have the 2nd nut flush draw, an open ended straight draw and overcards. Plus the only overcard above you cards actually helps you by giving you the nut straight or nut flush. You have a ton of outs. This is a value raise as per SSH I would imagine.

On the river, any chance K high takes is down 10% of the time? With your read, probably not, but others may argue that you pay him off.

[arkady]

hey chess,

If this is generally the way you are playing, then I would say its a TAD bit aggressive. In both situations, you were essentially on a draw (altho hand 1 is debatable), in any event - too aggressive IMO. In hand 2 you definitely have a MONSSSSTER, but remember you are still drawing. If the same draw wason the flop, I'd say go ahead and cap it, but no reason to 3 bet unless u got a specific read.

Just my humble opinion. But yes, I think you are tossing the chips a bit there trying to flex your muscles.

[arkady]

sounds dirty.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
sounds dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get yer head outta the gutter:

Cockles:
Idiom:
cockles of (one's) heart
One's innermost feelings: The valentine warmed the cockles of my heart.

[spamuell]

Come on guys, we're all saying the SS forum isn't good enough anymore and there aren't nearly enough good arguments. A bunch of you have said that Chesspain acted too aggressively on the flop of the first hand or you would have played it the same while I suggested to 3-bet the flop.

I know some of you disagree, argue with me ffs!

[bisonbison]

sounds dirty.

Tha's the point now, ain't it?

[arkady]

My mind? Gutter? What, you got the wrong person.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
ffs

[/ QUOTE ]
I couldn't figure out what this meant until I saw you were from London.
I love British vulgarities... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bisonbison]

To respond to the hands:

Hand 1: I think the preflop call is a little loose. I'd prefer a couple more callers before I called with any two suited.

I would check and call the flop. Your flush outs are very likely good, but you have few other outs. If the CO has reasonable raising standards, you're either drawing to 6 outs or to a runner runner two pair or straight. Without position, I'd like to keep everyone in.

I don't like the turn bet. I don't think any better hand folds and getting raised would suck.

Hand 2:

HU, even with a crapload of outs, I don't think the 3-bet is for value. The hands that your typical 3/6 player would raise here make me question your pair outs, so I think even with 17 outs, I'd just call the turn. The rest looks fine.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
you're either drawing to 6 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[bisonbison]

I'm talking about outs that aren't flush outs. Let's say the raiser followed the newly popular 2+2 standards:

if raiser has KQ, KJ, QJ, JT, or somesuch, and no one else has a pair (unlikely), then hero may have as many as six outs. However, if anyone has an ace or the raiser has a big pair like KK or QQ, the hero has to hit runner runner two pair or straight to win without a flush.

With just the flush outs in a 4-way pot out of position, I'd prefer to keep people in.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about outs that aren't flush outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I see.

[ QUOTE ]
With just the flush outs in a 4-way pot out of position, I'd prefer to keep people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But when the action comes back to Chesspain on the flop for the second time, don't you think a raise is in order, given that UTG is very likely to call as he has already put money into the pot on the flop, and with three likely callers this is a value raise?

Also, I explained in a previous post why I quite like betting the flop, I'll reproduce it:

[ QUOTE ]

I see why Chesspain bet the flop. The PF raiser was in last position and he might just check behind some of the time if he raised PF with a pair less than aces or a KQ/KJ type of hand. Chesspain wants to get bets in on the flop here if everyone is going to call, the best way to know who is going to call is by betting and then if the CO raises then when the action is back to Chesspain he can see which players have put money in the pot so whether there is value to a 3-bet. To me it looks like there is given that UTG has already put money in on the flop, maybe I'm the chip spewing LAG. I mean I know it's not the nut flush draw but it's still going to win a helluva lot of the time.

Also if the CO doesn't raise the flop, some of the time Chesspain will be able to win the pot on the turn with a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you disagree?

EDIT: Just to clarify, when I said "But when the action comes back to Chesspain on the flop for the second time, don't you think a raise is in order," I was talking about a threebet.

[MAxx]

I haven't read all the other posters, so this maybe repeditive advice.

Hand One: I think calling pf raise with any 2 suited is the right play in this situation. I would probably checkcall here on flop. I would save that turn bet. The ten helps your hand a little, but you would rather see the river on the cheap.

Hand 2: 3 bet is a waste. you don't have enough players in the pot to pump your strong draw. Call the raise and see river.