A stop 'n go appropriate here?

[Saborion]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

I didn't put the SB on a draw given his relative position and his check-raise, so I figured he'd bet the turn as well. Given the board and the two cold-callers, I was planning to simply call the flop and raise a non-scary turn card. Sure, the SB may have a set, but more often than not he won't have one. Bad play on my part?

[Fnord]

I like it since he can't check behind you, so worst case you lose 1SB here.... if it was heads up... With 2 cold callers you got to consider your chances of getting them to call both likely bets on the turn vs getting more bets out of them on the flop.

Neat problem.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
With 2 cold callers you got to consider your chances of getting them to call both likely bets on the turn vs getting more bets out of them on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I understand this. You're thinking that I simply called the flop check-raise to try to make more money on the turn by raising there instead of 3-betting the flop?

[Fnord]

How likely are your opponents to call more bets on the flop, vs bailing when they see heavy action on the turn? How likely are you to get more turn action anyway?

Also, if a heart hits you get better odds calling it down after jamming the flop.

Typical Party 3/6 players understand what the Turn raise represents, so the flop 3-bet might be a better line. Would like to see an answer by a better player...

[Saborion]

Well, my thinking at the table went something like this.
"A 3-bet from me won't make anyone fold. The board contains a few draws. I'll just call and see what comes on the turn. If it is a non-scary card I'll raise if bet into. If a scary card comes, I'll re-evaluate."

This way I'll be able to get more money into the pot on the turn, when my pot equity is bigger. That is, unless if a scare card comes, but then I might've saved money by not 3-betting the flop.

By not 3-betting the flop I'm also avoiding setting myself up for a check-raise on the turn if a scary comes off, since I can't offer a free card to anyone there.

[Mikey]

you are actually losing 1 1/2 BB here because your flop reraise will get calls from the other players.

[Mikey]

Don't be so afraid of flushdraws and straight draws. RERAISE it right here.

What if your opp. has something like K8o and checkraised the flop and now a (T) /images/graemlins/heart.gif (A), (J), (6) falls on the turn and he decides its time to pull in the reins and check it down because he has so many opp.

Also lets say you just called because you wanted to raise on the turn if a safe card falls but a heart falls instead...and you are bet into by one of the limpers, do you raise? Or do you call?

You have to regain control of this hand and now is the time to do it. You want your opp. responding to your play because your hand will be alot easier to play on the turn if you seize the initiative now.

[Trix]

I would like it with AK, but not with toptwo as more people are making mistakes here as most of the people who thinks they have a 5 outer, really only has 2.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be so afraid of flushdraws and straight draws. RERAISE it right here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I know I'm weak and all that, but seriously, do you believe I simply called because I was afraid of the draws?

[ QUOTE ]
What if your opp. has something like K8o and checkraised the flop and now a (T) (A), (J), (6) falls on the turn and he decides its time to pull in the reins and check it down because he has so many opp.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's checked to me, I bet, and he simply calls, well, then I might've lost a few bets.

[ QUOTE ]
Also lets say you just called because you wanted to raise on the turn if a safe card falls but a heart falls instead...and you are bet into by one of the limpers, do you raise? Or do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd call, although raising may be the better choice. I'm not sure.

[ QUOTE ]
You have to regain control of this hand and now is the time to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about? I was simply trying to possibly make more money by raising the turn instead. Granted, he may not bet the turn, I may be behind to a set and so on, but I believe I have the best hand way more often than not.

[ QUOTE ]
You want your opp. responding to your play because your hand will be alot easier to play on the turn if you seize the initiative now.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure it would. Say I 3-bet, and he caps, what does that tell us when you're up against an unknown? He can anything between TPTK to a set or a open-ended straight-flush draw.

[StellarWind]

I like it because you have a fine chance to trap the entire field after SB bets the turn. With this strong hand I am strictly about maximizing the pot. I realize I could lose but it is very unlikely that I can do anything about it. Better made hands and dangerous draws are not going anyplace and neither am I.

Note that there are lots of "feel-scared" cards but there are no "act-scared" cards. You need to raise regardless of what the turn card is. The only thing that would make me reconsider is if the turn is bad and one of the coldcallers raises in front of me.

BTW, I don't agree with this usage of the term "stop-n-go".

[mikewvp]

I think you should just pump it on the flop. If your SB has a set then hes a complete retard for check raising, thats what you do when you want people to fold, if he wanted the MPs to put dead money in he certainly did a bad job of it, even though they called anyway. Get the money in now, make them pay for their flush draws (even if the SB isn't drawing the other two are).

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
Get the money in now, make them pay for their flush draws (even if the SB isn't drawing the other two are).

[/ QUOTE ]
Ehum... If I 3-bet the flop and they all call, they aren't paying for their flush draws, they are making money. That is likely to be true for anyone holding an OESD as well. Or?

[Saborion]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between Hero and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (14.50 BB).</font>

Results:
SB shows 8c 8h (one pair, eights).
Hero shows Ks Js (two pair, kings and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.

I've got the impression that 3-betting the flop vs calling the check-raise and going for a raise on the turn are both valid options. The problem with waiting until the turn to raise is that the SB may not bet the turn, and there are a lot of scary cards that can come on the turn. I'm still a bit unsure about this one.

[krishanleong]

I would call and raise the turn here everytime. Even if a scare card came, you have redraws. The point I want to make though is the checkraise doesn't indicate strength all the time. Right now, if I checkraise the flop it means I have 5 outs usually and that I want everyone to fold. In this hand, noone folded which might mean SB may be less likely to bet the turn.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

Ehum... If I 3-bet the flop and they all call, they aren't paying for their flush draws, they are making money. That is likely to be true for anyone holding an OESD as well. Or?

[/ QUOTE ]

Random pairs and thin draws are getting the worst of it. You AND the best flush draw are making money (it may even be EV neutral for the flush draw depending on the number of callers), with you getting the best of it because of your re-draw to a full house.

[Saborion]

Yes, but the way mike put it, it sounded as though he thought I charged the flush draws, but if the pot is 4-way I'm not charging any flush draws, am I?

[J.R.]

3-bet. The sb's check-raise says marginal hand like TP/NK which may not bet out after all of these calls. The field is trapped, so charge them now, there is reason to suspect the SB may not bet the turn. Typically, a hand strong enough to bet the turn after everyone called the flop check-raise would have led into the field.

The oesd is not making money on each bet that goes in (the oesd would need greater than 25% equity, which isn't the case if there is also a flush draw out there), only the best flush draw is, but you are grabbing the lion's share of the value being generated by each extra bet, and this value increases (by about 3%) to the extent there are other hearts out there in hands other than the best flush draw's hand.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet. The sb's check-raise says marginal hand like TP/NK which may not bet out after all of these calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. I didn't think about that.

[ QUOTE ]
The oesd is not making money on each bet that goes in (the oesd would need greater than 25% equity, which isn't the case if there is also a flush draw out there),

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the OESD is making money if there isn't a flush draw out there?

[ QUOTE ]
but you are grabbing the lion's share of the value being generated by each extra bet, and this value increases (by about 3%) to the extent there are other hearts out there in hands other than the best flush draw's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand that part. I'm getting way more than my fair share on the pot, thus making a lot of money by each bet that goes into the pot? But about the 3 % heart thing. That's true, I suppose, but there's nothing that says there's any hearts other than those in the flush draw hand out there. Or?

What's important though, is the fact that the SB may not bet the turn because of the two cold-callers. Would you 3-bet even if there only was one cold-caller?

[J.R.]

My point was that the best made hand and the best draw make money on flop bets in multiway pots, but, to the extent the made hand is more robust (ie 2 pair or a set as opposed to just one pair) and to the extent flush draws are duplicated (s Ah3h and another flush draw), the made hand is more valuable.

If the OESD is the best draw, it generally makes money on the flop bets going into the pot in multiway hands

The point of the 3% was to covey that, even when the flush draw's 9 potential outs are all live, you still make money, and quite often the flush draws outs won't all be live, so you make even more money on each bet going into the pot. With top two you are a favorite over a draw unless its QhTh.

I'd likely 3-bet with one coldcaller, although its closer as you are more likely to get bet into on the turn, so it would depend on my read.

[Saborion]

Thanks.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
This way I'll be able to get more money into the pot on the turn, when my pot equity is bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your pot equity is large enough on the flop to 3 bet here. You have top 2 which is a relative monster considering this board (what I mean to say is that a set is rather unlikely).

[Saborion]

That may be true, but I'd make more money if I get to raise the turn instead of 3-betting the flop, wouldn't I?

But I believe 3-betting the flop is the better choice, mainly for the reason JR posted.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
That may be true, but I'd make more money if I get to raise the turn instead of 3-betting the flop, wouldn't I?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, not at all because the 2 limpers are more likely to fold the turn.

[bisonbison]

This isn't a stop and go, it's a rope-a-dope.

[Saborion]

Huh? They cold-call the flop, then fold for a bet on the turn?