Poll: How many millionaires in the United States?

[riverflush]

I was reading an article about Michael Moore in the UK Guardian today and there was a brief passage from Moore's book "Dude, Where's My Country?" that got me thinking.

In it Moore says this:

[ QUOTE ]
"Listen, friends, you have to face the truth: you are never going to be rich. The chance of that happening is about one in a million.


Not only are you never going to be rich, but you are going to have to live the rest of your life busting your butt just to pay the cable bill and the music and art classes for your kid at the public school where they used to be free."


[/ QUOTE ]

So it got me to thinking...since Mr. Moore's attitude is to remove all hope of the American dream vis-a-vis our "corrupt, sick, backwards system"...I figured I'd run the numbers. You know, take a look at just how much we're getting screwed over here. By Moore's "one in a million" math, there should be around 300 or so millionaires in the U.S. The rest of us are left to scramble for peanuts, or bust our butts for that awesome public school that "used to be free." Apparently, our schools are "free" - hmm, I guess taxes don't count. Well maybe Moore primarily rents and therefore doesn't understand property taxes, uhh, well I'll give him a pass. I'll take him at his word that government-provided services are "free" for now.

Since many of you guys obviously know me and what angle I come from, the answer here is going to be pretty obvious in the end...but I figured I should just let us all guess first.

Info, answers, and stats forthcoming...

[ThaSaltCracka]

LOL, I guess I am the first to reply....

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, our schools are "free" - hmm, I guess taxes don't count. Well maybe Moore primarily rents and therefore doesn't understand property taxes, uhh, well I'll give him a pass. I'll take him at his word that government-provided services are "free" for now.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you are being to literal.

[tolbiny]

"By Moore's "one in a million" math, there should be around 300 or so millionaires in the U.S."

Micheal moore said that those reading his book are not going to be rich, implying that they are not already. So you have to discount anyone who was not born a millionaire=- only count those who are already in the work force and will become millionaires.

EDIT: Also- everything a person says does not have to be taken literally. One in a million is a fairly common expression.

[Cyrus]

You have put up a humongous post while you could have probably stated your point more succintly. What is your point? That the more millionnaires there are in the US economy, the "better" the US economy is?

In that case, you have to define "better" first: "Better" for whom? For the millionnaires or for the rest the people? Or for "everybody"? (The last one would take some provin'!)

If that's your point, I would, instead, also use other measures and not just "number of millionnaires". I would also use GNP per capita -- but, again, that one, on its own, would be misleading. (Think Brunei, where the GNP per capita is huge but all the moolah goes to the Sultan. Since the moolah is huge, the average is up. That's the trouble with averages.)

You would have to use the median, more preferably, and then the GINI index which shows how the income generated in an economy is distributed within it. To the many or to the few? In both extreme cases, it is of course bad : Total equality is 1950s Albania - theoretically; total concentration in one man is, well, Brunei! But tilting extraorinarily towards the "few" as is the case, compararatively, in the US is, what, good for you?

The GINI index, one example of which is here (http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/IncPov98.html), shows that in the US income has been concentrating on the upper echelons since 1967. And it's not a partisan issue, either (during Clinton's term, there was only a slight bump the other way).

[Jimbo]

I believe I agree with Cyrus. The more poor people the better!

Jimbo

[Zeno]

Quote:
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"Listen, friends, you have to face the truth: you are never going to be rich. The chance of that happening is about one in a million.


Not only are you never going to be rich, but you are going to have to live the rest of your life busting your butt just to pay the cable bill and the music and art classes for your kid at the public school where they used to be free."



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'Never be rich'.....Then...'one in a million'.


You don't need cable - use that money to purchase books for your children. Spent less time watching TV and more time with your kids and the books. Read to them; help them with their education and development.

Moore's statement is full of idiocy and blather. What is ‘rich’? Money, I assume. Besides, why should I want to be 'rich' according to some arbitrary standards? And why should I care that some people are ‘rich’? Is my life to be driven by envy?

Michael Moore is a Moron. His entire vile body should be run through a meat grinder and turned into hotdogs. The negative effect of this further polluting the hotdog output would be offset by the positive gain of removing from public discourse the imbecilitic ramblings, puerile utterances, and blubbering propaganda media productions by this blowhard moron.


I'm glad you posted Moore's comments to illustrate just what a fool he is. The poll, though interesting, was uneccessary in my opinion.


-Zeno

[MMMMMM]

"Moore's statement is full of idiocy and blather. What is ‘rich’? Money, I assume. Besides, why should I want to be 'rich' according to some arbitrary standards? And why should I care that some people are ‘rich’? Is my life to be driven by envy?

Michael Moore is a Moron. His entire vile body should be run through a meat grinder and turned into hotdogs. The negative effect of this further polluting the hotdog output would be offset by the positive gain of removing from public discourse the imbecility ramblings, puerile utterances, and blubbering propaganda media productions by this blowhard moron."


Zeno, your points would be better made without such tone and vitriol. Hatred has destroyed many minds; please don't let it destroy yours.

[ACPlayer]

You are right MMMMMM.

Unfortunately political discourse has become one of vitriol and hatred. Perhaps starting with Willie Horton, dont you think?

I know that you know full well that when there is no meat, all you can do is fake the sizzle.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Zeno, your points would be better made without such tone and vitriol. Hatred has destroyed many minds; please don't let it destroy yours.

[/ QUOTE ]


M,

Thanks for the reminder.

Now what was that about scorn? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I reserve the right for sarcaism as you reserve the right for scorn. And also for everyone else of course; it makes for more fun. Just ask Cyrus. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif


-Zeno

[MMMMMM]

"You are right MMMMMM."

Ah, finally ACPlayer has agreed with me on something. Truly, this is a day to treasure;-)


"Unfortunately political discourse has become one of vitriol and hatred. Perhaps starting with Willie Horton, dont you think?"

The name rings a bell but from where I do not know.


"I know that you know full well that when there is no meat, all you can do is fake the sizzle."

Yes...and that damned demagogue of class-warfare, Michael Moore, fakes the sizzle pretty well, wouldn't you agree?

[CCass]

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of millionaire households (defined as having a net worth in excess of $1M) in the US are first generation millionaires.

I don't guess Micheal Moore is good with statistics.

[ACPlayer]

Ah the selective memory of the poor poker player rears its head once again!!!

I cant say anything about Michael Moore (MM to you!) as I have not seen any of his movies or read his books (and dont particularly want to).

But having read Zeno, MMMMMM (Michael Moore times 3!), and the rest of the looney right (as opposed to the true conservative) I can with confidence say that they are all sizzle and bluster and little meat (except some of your comments on classical music perhaps).

[luv_the_game]

Anyone of average intelligence and work ethic in this country can become a millionare. Start investing 10% of you income in your 20s and you are just about gaurenteed. Even if you never make more than 20k you will still have more than a million at 65 if you start at 20. (assuming 8% average return on investment)

Their is absolutely no reason why any middle class person shouldn't retire a millionare. It's just not that hard given time.

Disclaimer:
I started at 19 with no money, two blue collar jobs, and nobody paying for my education. I definately don't qualify for the "priviledged rich" class. I am approaching it though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Senor Choppy]

I think Moore's definition of rich differs from yours. Being a millionaire wouldn't cut it for most celebrities.

[elwoodblues]

Just curious what made you change Moore's words from "you are never going to be rich" to a question about if you will ever have amassed one million dollars? That might be the threshhold for rich, and it might not --- certainly open for discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
By Moore's "one in a million" math, there should be around 300 or so millionaires in the U.S. The rest of us are left to scramble for peanuts

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now, you know as well as everyone else here that the phrase "one in a million" isn't meant to be literal. Further, as I noted above, you are the one assuming rich means one million dollars (unless it is stated elsewhere in his book.)

Moore's words: "you are never going to be rich. The chance of that happening is about one in a million"

Your interpretation: "You are never going to amass one million dollars. The chances of that happening are precisely one in one million"

My interpretation: "You are never to going be rich. It is a big longshot for that to happen."


You might have a good point that Moore's attitude here is overly pessimistic. You just aren't very good at making your point in a reasonable way.

[riverflush]

Ok guys...here we go.

I really wasn't trying to "make a point" with this post; rather, I was relishing the opportunity to stir things up and got just about what I expected. I'm not trying to define what "rich" means, in dollar terms, nor am I trying to make a particular argument for or against using personal income/asset indicators as a measure of happiness or success.

Success is up to you to define...success is personal. The term "rich" cannot be defined, it is a mirage of our minds.
While you can attempt to vaguely approach a definition of rich, any such attempt is really just arbitrary.

If there is a theme to my post, it is that Michael Moore is a ridiculous blowhard anti-capitalist capitalist who has no idea what he's talking about; who couldn't spot an economic indicator if it hit him in the face, yet ironically succeeds at being "rich" - all while railing against the very system that allows him to exist. (now that's a run-on sentence if I've ever seen one)

The answers to the questions are as follows:

1) There are 2.27 million U.S. citizens with a financial net-worth of over $1 million. This does not include homes as an asset (because they are often actually a liability, which nobody seems to understand...but that's advanced economics). This $1 million figure is completely arbitrary, but generally those with such high net worths are able to make significant passive income , which is an important indicator of wealth and a high quality of life.

2) Currently, there are 15.1 million U.S. households earning more than $100,000/yr.

3) From 1990-2002 (most recent figures), the number of U.S. individuals earning more than $100,000 has increased by a factor of 4 .

In 2003, the number of U.S. millionaires increased by 14% - the largest increase of any country in the world (and this was coming off a U.S. recession). By 2007, the number of individuals in the U.S. earning more than $100,000 is expected to rise by 63%. Home ownership is currently at an all-time high of 69.2%....etc. etc.

The point is: America is a great place to live and the American dream is alive and well. Pessimism sucks...and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You are free to choose your own life. If you choose Moore's path, I wish you well...I just wouldn't bet on you. Optimism, hard work, and the willingness to fail will propel you towards success (as you define it). If you choose to wallow amongst the "sky is falling" crowd, you will usually find that the sky is falling.

Enjoy the week in the "Other Topics" Forum, I'm taking the entire week off. With the GOP Convention getting 24/7 coverage, this is bound to be a particularly negative week on here.

Peace.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Zeno]

Great Post Riverflush.

[ QUOTE ]
With the GOP Convention getting 24/7 coverage, this is bound to be a particularly negative week on here.



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Nah - just a lot of whining and sniveling but really nothing more than usual.

Four more years.

-Zeno

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Moore's definition of rich differs from yours. Being a millionaire wouldn't cut it for most celebrities.

[/ QUOTE ]

also 1 million isnt what it used to be. im FAR from rich but i have a friend who makes 110k a year. his wife doesnt work and he has 2 kids. he has much less cash than me but a MUCH higher net worth and hes always broke and bitching about his wifes spending habits. i actually had to loan him 500$ 3 months ago to turn his electricity back on! 2 million is a much more impressive number to me.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
but i have a friend who makes 110k a year...i actually had to loan him 500$ 3 months ago to turn his electricity back on

[/ QUOTE ]

That is one of the most pathetic things I have ever read. /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i have a friend who makes 110k a year...i actually had to loan him 500$ 3 months ago to turn his electricity back on

[/ QUOTE ]

That is one of the most pathetic things I have ever read. /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

whats really sad is he wines about his wife wont quit spending money. i told him to be a man but hes a SUPER COMPUTER geek who is completely run over by his over bearing wife.