open letter to tommy angelo

[mike l.]

dear tommy,

i had Ad3d two off the button and i raised. 100-200 at commerce. the guy on the button 3 bets. he's very loose and aggro. the bb who is even more clueless than either of us calls. i call.

the flop is Kh9h4c. checked to button who bets, blind folds. i call deciding that i will bet the turn no matter what.

the turn is 7s. i bet, he raises. he raises in such a way with just the right hesitation and right speed and extra strength in his pace that i know what he has. and then he stares blankly holding quite still. i wait and he keeps holding still and he's trying to intimidate. i know he wants a fold. he has exactly QhJh. ive got him tommy, ive got this guy. i should reraise but if he bluffs the river it will be the same amount of bets, in retrospect this is wrong but hell im a little scared. im going to call this guy down man, he's got QJ of hearts. so i call.

the river is 6h. he got there. i check and call. i dont even think about it. im now paying $200 to prove to myself how right i am (not how unlucky i am, even i couldnt delude myself into thinking that, not the way ive been running). the guy flips up QhJh. yep im the greatest. im just a big bet lighter in the wallet. fuuck.

tommy are you out there? why do i keep doing this? will i ever stop doing this? or am i a terminal ego case that will always be held back by his need to be right even when im so wrong? can i mark a date in my calendar tommy? in ink? do i need some therapy, or should i just rush for the ER? things have gotten so much better, but are still so fuucked up. tommy can you help me?

thanks in advance, mike l.

ps: is it true youre coming down here in a couple weeks?? how's your 2-7 triple draw game cause we're big on that down this way. gabe's writing a book on it i think.

[Tommy Angelo]

"why do i keep doing this?"

Because you haven't stopped doing it yet.

"will i ever stop doing this?"

Yes.

"or am i a terminal ego case that will always be held back ..."

When you start to think of the held-back feeling as the constant and the other stuff as the fluctuation, then you'll realize that this ...

"by this need to be right even when im so wrong?"

... is nothing but a symptom of your masochism. And then you'll see why the answer to this ...

"can i mark a date in my calendar tommy?"

... is no.

"in ink?"

Not even in pencil.

"do i need some therapy?"

Not yet. You need to practice a little something.

Face the fact that at some moments during battle it will be correct for you to call headsup on the turn and then fold on the river if the flush card comes. It is inevitable that this play will be correct sometimes. But if you struggle with the act of performing this line, as almost everyone does, then all your brilliance and ability are wasted because you didn't bother to practice the act of making the tough shot. Anyone good golfer can hit off the tee. It's from under trees, under pressure, is what really matters.

And I'm not talking about just calling the turn and folding the river. I'm talking smooth. Smooth is important because 1) Keeps you stable and rehearsed 2) Nobody every knows if you folded a pair or a missed draw or what. You do no pretending either which way, and they have no clue. That is if you're smooth everytime. So rehearsal of any kind is worth it for that reason if nothing else.

He bets the turn. You call. He bets the river, you fold. And you follow through. Nothing about the hand at all comes from you by voice or body. I suggest you practice this stuff in the car by taking the time to visualize yourself in the act of folding the river after calling the turn. Then do it ten more times. It's got to be unthinking. It takes courage to make a fold like this based only on the flush card coming. But when it's right, it's right, and you know it. Trouble is, there's no time for courage between the moment his river bet hits the table and yours follows.

The idea is that when you find yourself in a situation where you already decided to call the turn and fold the river if the flush card comes, it no longer matters if that was the right choice. It was the choice you made. And because you practiced the act of calling the turn and folding the river, in itself, like a golf shot, then, when it comes time to apply it in any particular situation, you are physically capable of doing it, whereas, in your current insufficiently rehearsed state, you can't.

As to the reason you can't do it anyway without the training, that goes back to your fuuckupedness which is a whole nuther matter or course. Meanwhile. Use band aids.

Tommy

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile. Use band aids.


[/ QUOTE ]

How much patching can the house take before the whole edifice crumbles to the ground because the slip shod foundation can't stand the weight?

Mike’s post was inevitable and easily foreseeable- but I do not relish saying so.

-Zeno

[mike l.]

"Mike’s post was inevitable and easily foreseeable"

dont be all smug, i already knew the answer. i did this for everyone elses' benefit.

ive made posts just like this before. it's like a confessional, a penance, and it does wonders. and for all the times ive made this crummy river call, ive made numerous good folds.

"How much patching can the house take before the whole edifice crumbles to the ground because the slip shod foundation can't stand the weight?"

come play me and make the mistake so many of my opponents do of thinking this house is built of straw. ill invite you in, suddenly leave, and set it on fire w/ you inside. you wont even realise youre cooking alive until well after ive left. with your money.

i only post the close ones and the outright errors on here. i already think im the greatest so i need to hear more and more that im not and i need to be put into the uncomfortable situation of trying to defend highly questionable play. i played so damn good last night but it's only because i psyched up about it the two days before by learning and teaching on here.

[mike l.]

"And you follow through."

see but ive already really really psyched myself up about my read. im just so stoked ive found the read and ive got him in my headlights. so it's like im giving myself a prize for second best by calling on the river there and proving "well at least my read was correct". and that's a $200 trophy i just bought, knowing i was right.

how can i stop caring i was right? how can i stop "rewarding" myself this way. you said it's masochism but it's not. im not trying to punish myself. being right gets me high. ego case. i know the profile of the guy who calls and then shows and then whines because he wants to show the whole table, the whole world, that he alone is the most unlucky guy in the world. that's not me. why do i need to prove to myself that i was right, that i am smart, that i am good. ego ego ego. why am i so blessed and so running good yet still so insecure?

it's for this same reason that my game focuses first on what do they have rather than what do i have. ive been working on changing that around to the way most of you naturally play which is to evaluate your own hands first and sometimes you dont even get to what your opponent can have. i have made good progress, but still struggle with that. most of you need more hand reading ability and guts based on that. i need less. it's why people say to me, gee you should learn no limit because you have the sort of mind that would be good at that, at making reads and committing to it. i think it's the same sort of change tommy has went through but his was on a much deeper level. tommy for you it used to be all about button mania and raise bet raise bet position position position and giving your opponents absolultey no credit for anything very read based. and now your touting massive weak tightness and this almost strict zen like penchant for fold fold fold call call call. at least your posts have changed that way. it's heavy. so in trying to change more into that safe and sane mode im straight up schizo at this point. my opponents hate it, and i sort of hate it, but i am doing better and better and the hours and amounts are starting to stand up and say hey this is getting beyond short term running good.

but i still cant seem to bottle it much as i try. i cant control it. so calls like this one i wrote to you about come up and blow bets. i know trying to prove im right is wrong. how can i change that call that proves im right into a fold that doesnt worry about it, that smugly smiles inside and feels glad i didnt have to reassure myself. it seems like a lot to grasp in the car on the way there because im not all psyched up like i am in the moment the hand is going down.

im bad with plans, im bad w/ gimmicks and band aids. i need the real reasons behind it to force my change.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Mike:

If you are a winning player, which I believe that you are, and you're playing with inferior competition, which I also believe that you are, I have one question:

Why would you even worry about trying to outguess the moron on the button, with a flop that absolutely missed you completely? Why not just fold on the flop, and play another hand, and continue winning money?

Am I looking at this too simply? Maybe, I often do. But you are out of position, trying to outguess an idiot in a game where you have a clear advantage. You also have no hand. None.

You have achieved a level at poker that others cannot achieve -- why give the suckers a chance to take your money when there is no need to?

If you really put the button on QJh, and he really has this hand, he has about 200 outs when you lead on the turn.

I don't get it. And I'm not trying to be an antagonistic prick. (This time).

TSP

[M2d]

Maybe this thread belongs on the Psycology forum?
sorry for the vague reply, but for me, it just happened. somewhere, down the road, I just stopped making a lot of these calls.
Now, I've read too many of your posts to berate you for being a calling station, because I know you play very well post flop, and that this example is a snapshot rather than a trend. here, you call and get proven right. other times, you call and get proven wrong (which is a good thing for you stack). other times, you muck and are done with it.

I think it matters little, which option you choose on any given hand. for obvious reasons the river is the last place you want to make tough laydowns, so calling here can't be too wrong. I think this is especially true in your games where the players are trickier and more aggressive. in my 15-30 games, the reads I make can be so spot on that I can laydown in my sleep and not spend an iota of additional brainpower on them.

As I alluded to before, making the laydown and not caring about it goes hand in hand. And, for me, I just suddenly stopped caring. once the my cards hit the muck, I'm done with it, and I couldn't care less about what the other guy holds.

if you need a concrete place to hang your hat, think about making a bad read and mucking the winner as a way to encourage that guy to keep moving on pots against you. it doesn't put any more chips in your stack right now, but it can, at least, give you some value for your action. this way, right or wrong, you get value for whichever action you choose.

[mike l.]

"Am I looking at this too simply?"

no youve hit it dead on. i get overinvolved in marginal situations too often because i have mental problems, ego problems.

that does it. im looking into penis enlargement.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
dont be all smug,

[/ QUOTE ]

But I needed to be smug to help you and I have no reputation to lose.

Great response especially the last paragraph but what is this:

[ QUOTE ]
come play me and make the mistake so many of my opponents do of thinking this house is built of straw. ill invite you in, suddenly leave, and set it on fire w/ you inside. you wont even realise youre cooking alive until well after ive left. with your money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is just silly even though I'm sure it was fun to say.

Building a proper poker foundation: Book 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393316998/qid=1093904026/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-5684354-9530547)

Your move.


-Zeno

[Steve Giufre]

NM

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
i get overinvolved in marginal situations too often because i have mental problems, ego problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you get overinvolved in marginal situations because your so damn strong at reading situations that it would cost you a ton to play any other way. Mike, I remember posting a hand awhile back, where I thought my play was bad based on a supposed good players comments. Everyone including Mason, David and Ray said my play was fine and the "good player" played it terribly. You came out an read deeper into the situation and said this was a case of regulars respecting each others play. I was absolutely floored, as you hit it so perfectly. I still see these insights everytime you post a hand.

The only problem you have is that 2 years from now, when these bad players get better or go away, you'll be making these folds every time, and torturing these better players in these marginal situations. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'll guess late 20's early 30's. If I'm right, I can assure you, ego mellows with age.

[mike l.]

thanks that was a nice post, thanks for the kind words.
this is a side note:

"when these bad players get better or go away"

see the way i remember it is there were lots of bad players even before all this TV stuff happened. hold em is by its nature a game that some aimless kid or bored guy or smart girl or whatever sees and says hey i can do this, this game just takes common sense. just play tight and aggressive. but they never read a book. or if they do it's a bad one. or they have a gambling problem and tilt problem. or all of the above. so they are self taughts and they are cold calling raises w/ KJo and they are why we win. and they are not the worst players even, in LA there will always be the rich guys who play every hand. and the kid who wants to be pro because he doesnt like to work and he doesnt have a girlfriend and he'll just buy in a short stack and wait for a very good hand and then call all the way with it when it's clearly beat. and theyve been coming in for years.

and they will always be around.

[Steve Giufre]

I respect you for sharing mostly the bad and some of the good in the majority of your posts. Anyone who says they dont occationally pay off off when they "know" they are beat is a liar. But of course keeping this to a bare minimum is really important, and its good to remeind yourself of that. Anyhow, it sounds like you are doing fine.

[mike l.]

"Now that is just silly even though I'm sure it was fun to say."

bingo.

"Building a proper poker foundation: Book 1"

oh wait a second i remember. are you the belgian guy who i got in a thread w/ and we were comparing elysium to foucault and then i realised you were much smartassier than me? are you one of those eurotrash internet wizzes? go find JV. he'll play your game.

"Your move."

forget it. i fold.

[doggin]

I like reading your hands in this high-stakes forum, even
though I don't play them.
You may not want to answer this question and I may be
out of line with it but..........
Do you consistantly (say, monthly) beat the 100/200 limit
game?

Thanks!

[mike l.]

"Do you consistantly (say, monthly) beat the 100/200 limit
game?"

yes but ive only played maybe 100 hours at that level. i consistently beat 40-80 and ive played over 1000 hours in that game.

[mikelow]

We all make bad calls. Just can't control the arm motion.

[doggin]

Good deal Mike. There is no doubt as much as you think about
the "game", you'll succeed at this level too (long term).

Do you buy-in for these upper limits the typical 25 BB also?
....and then just kind of go from there?

I play 4/8 and 5/10 and plan on going to 10/20 before the
year is out. I'm back here on the Ohio River at
Louisville, Ky and Evansville,In.

Good luck Mike and keep those hands coming!

[Pot-A]

see but ive already really really psyched myself up about my read. im just so stoked ive found the read and ive got him in my headlights. so it's like im giving myself a prize for second best by calling on the river there and proving "well at least my read was correct". and that's a $200 trophy i just bought, knowing i was right.

That's the crux of it, isn't it? When you first start to play, it's probably worth your money to call every so often just to calibrate your reader.

As you get better, every once in awhile it still might be worth 1BB when you're trying to figure someone out.

By the time you're good enough to beat the 100-200 game, you don't really need this crutch any more. But emotionally, you still crave the feedback loop. Am I still reading these guys right, or have they been pushing me around since I started to fold the river? But you shouldn't be in that game if you can't trust your reads.

[turnipmonster]

hey mike, just out of curiosity what's the ratio of good players to fish in the 1/2 commerce game? I guess I always pictured 8 guys like lenny martin feasting off 2 clueless rich guys. but from your posts it sounds a lot different than that. do you run into many tough players, is the game every really bad? just curious about the general nature of these games.

--turnipmonster

[Tommy Angelo]

"how can i stop caring i was right? how can i stop "rewarding" myself this way. you said it's masochism but it's not."

Sure it is.

"im not trying to punish myself."

Mike, you already knew before the flush card came that you were going to call and it was going to hurt.

I'll go out on a ledge here and say you're two leaps away from finding peace at the table. First you have to get to where you beat yourself up over beating yourself up. In other words, you have to no longer beat yourself up for, say, calling on the river on this hand, and no longer beat yourself up any more for your perfectly normal merely common place personality traits and features such as fear and ego or whatever you feel like labeling about yourself.

When you get to where you know you should stop beating yourself up for what you do, and for who you are, but you keep beating yourself up anyway, then you're at the odd realization that all you are doing is beating yourself up for beating yourself up. And that's just silly. So stop it. And then you have peace, at least for little stretches. Then make the stretches longer. Ad infinitum and good night.

Tommy

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
are you one of those eurotrash internet wizzes?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO. A complete misread.


Book 2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812968255/qid=1093919191/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-5684354-9530547?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[ QUOTE ]
"Your move."

forget it. i fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just when it was getting interesting but I agree.

Farewell at the table.

-Zeno

[mike l.]

well then where the hell is Spitsbergen? west virginia?

[mike l.]

i always buy into games w/ two racks, i dont feel comfortable buying in for less. so whatever that is. yeah 25 big bets i guess.

[rory]

Thank you for posting this mike.

[mike l.]

"just out of curiosity what's the ratio of good players to fish in the 1/2 commerce game?"

first off im nowhere near authority on this, someone like snakehead or someone else who never posts anymore would have a better clue.

"I guess I always pictured 8 guys like lenny martin feasting off 2 clueless rich guys."

my funny lenny martin story is this: a couple weeks ago some kid im friends with says hey do you know that is in the 2 seat in the main game over there (i was in the must move), that's lenny martin, mason told me. he was serious, not pulling my leg at all. i said wow that's neat. then i played w/ the guy a few times and watched him play and he's not awful but he's certainly not excellent and far too loose and far too passive to be expert status. plus people are calling him by another name. so finally ask this other kid who is a really tough player who just beats up the 1-2 constantly who the guy is and say do you know who lenny martin is, is that him? and he says well i dont think so cause his name is XXXX. so i explain well LM is this guy that is supposedly the end all be all of limit hold em. and the kid looks at me and says no that's definitely not him. when you first asked me i was like 80% sure it wasnt him but now that you told me that im 100% sure it's not him. lol, i dont know struck me as funny at the time.

"do you run into many tough players, is the game every really bad?"

it depends on what you consider tough. if by tough you mean players who are generally very fearless and aggressive and fairly unpredictable, as well as good to excellent hand readers then yes, it's definitely a tough game sometimes. but there also tends to be this steady stream of tiltly uneducated very rich generally asian men, but also women, as well as russians and eastern euro, and US white and black guys who just suck and donate say $5-$15k at a time into the game. they do have some things they do well, as all higher limit fish do, but in general an educated very skilled player who can stomach losing $1k in a hand will do very well in the game.

now forget all that and stay away.

oh one more thing. last night the must move game was pretty darn bad. two okay but not great players and 4 players ranging from very good to excellent. so i skipped when they called my name. then the main game was looking okay and short around 5 am but still not fish central and i was tired so again i skipped it.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
well then where the hell is Spitsbergen? west virginia?

[/ QUOTE ]

Spitsbergen (http://www.norway.mid.ru/norway/sp_eng.html)


Great 'Northern most cam in the World (wonderful lighting) (http://www.ram.uni-bremen.de/ramcam.html)


By the way, I've never been there.

-Zeno

[tolbiny]

Sorry mike, i lost it. I was in the shower coming up with a fantastic reply, and i forgot the whole damn thing. All except this. Its an old quote.

To pursue perfection while accepting that it is unattainable is the path to wisdom.

Accept it mike, dont know it, accept it.

[shemp]

So you put him on a hand you could beat and then called and for $200 it turned out you were right about the turn.

Have you ever been wrong with one of these reads (see, I know the answer to this, having read your other posts)?

Couple of math questions.

Do you know how far ahead on the turn you were of JhTh, QhTh, and QhJh?

Do you know how rare it must be for him to actually have a hand for your play to make sense?

I realize that none of this matters, because you knew what he had, and you are simply angry with yourself for paying off to stroke your own ego -- but there's more. And thinking about it might make you even better, so you can rape, pillage, burn houses down, light bankrolls on fire and mix metaphors like no other man alive, small penis and all.

[mike l.]

"I realize that none of this matters"

no i got you. that was a great post, well written and great content. thanks i hear you loud and clear.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

"small penis and all".
/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[mike l.]

oh great nobody told me they let girls in here.

[andyfox]

Women, not girls.

[Gabe]

broads not girls.

[mike l.]

anyone ever see uhf?

the line goes "how many times do i have to tell you?! never call chicks broads!"

[bender]

You should have proposed a bet to the guy that you knew exactly what his hole cards were.
That would have been one of the coolest things that have ever happened.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

NO, wrong again boyz. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif Never, ever ever call THE BABE a "chick" or a "broad". /images/graemlins/mad.gif

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Pot-A]

Then I guess the hiphopish "honey" or "ho" is out too?