30-60 9-6 suited hand

[Lawrence Ng]

All fold to me in the cutoff and I raise with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Button folds, SB folds, BB calls. BB is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop.

Now, before you go on reading and making any comments, I don't need a twoplustwo lecture on stealing with 9-6 suited. I would like you to comment on my river play and that's it.

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, I decide to check because I know I'm going to get called down with Ace high, any pair, and my attempt to steal so far has failed so even though I flopped an open ender and a backdoor straight draw. I figure there is no point wasting anymore money unless I hit and I'm a dog on this flop for sure if BB called me.

Turn is a beautiful 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif giving me the nut straight.

BB bets, I raise, BB re-raise, I 4 bet, BB 5 bet, I 6 bet.

Anyways this goes on till I make it 10 bets or something and finally he just calls.

River pairs the King /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB checks. Do I check or bet?

[DcifrThs]

bet.

he's got 6-4 and you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
bet.

he's got 6-4 and you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

You're folding the nut straight for one bet on the river against a player who "is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop"? No way, no how. I bet and call a raise. I've never played above $15/$30 but there is no way I can see folding this to the villain described here.

SpaceAce

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet.

he's got 6-4 and you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

You're folding the nut straight for one bet on the river against a player who "is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop"? No way, no how. I bet and call a raise. I've never played above $15/$30 but there is no way I can see folding this to the villain described here.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, he went TEN BETS on the turn...he has the same straight, a lower straight or a set...period...the board paired, he expects you to call after he raises, therefore he has a boat.

since he'll likely just call i think he has 64.

-Barron

[Emoney]

[ QUOTE ]
bet.

he's got 6-4 and you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

for a 25:1 i think you MIGHT think about calling.

[Nightwish]

Folding to a check-raise could be a catastrophic error. There are plenty of retards out there who will check-raise with a straight because (a) they're really excited about their hand and fail to notice that it may have just been counterfeited or (b) they put you on the same hand as them (96) and there's a tiny chance that you'll make a catastrophic error and fold to a check-raise.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Bet and call a checkraise. Folding would be stupid. Dude went 10 bets on the turn. It's way more likely he has 64 than a set.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]


you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes trying to be really good at poker just ends up making you really dumb instead.

[rory]

I hope you are joking about folding. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-rory

[Whistler]

Two pair isnt a possibility? I think the fact that there is possibly a failed flop check raise should be taken into account?

[rory]

Fur Coat (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/31)

[clepsir9786]

if i was you i would have bet. There is not point in not betting. You see if he checked and you checked the pot would be the same and you probly would have won. If you bet and he foled you would have won the same amount. You should have made any easy bet but you should habe made a bet.

[cuse]

"All fold to me in the cutoff and I raise with 9 6

Button folds, SB folds, BB calls. BB is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop.

Now, before you go on reading and making any comments, I don't need a twoplustwo lecture on stealing with 9-6 suited. I would like you to comment on my river play and that's it. "

I wouldn't want to lecture on stealing with 9-6 suited, but aren't you choosing the wrong time to do it. With a loose big blind that is willing to call you down with any ace-high or pair, aren't you just entering this hand as a huge underdog? 96s simply doesn't play well at showdown against the range of hands that I would expect to call you- its an underdog against random hand, and the big blind seems like the type who is not folding preflop unless his hand is absolutely atrocious.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes trying to be really good at poker just ends up making you really dumb instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks...forgot about all those bets on the turn...egg on face feels, well, not so good.

bet & CALL how's that lol. i still say he's got 64.
-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Two pair isnt a possibility? I think the fact that there is possibly a failed flop check raise should be taken into account?

[/ QUOTE ]

no 2 pair is not possible. 10 bets on turn, unless the guy is a straight retard. (no pun intended)

-Barron

[GOODBEATGUY2001]

Bet & call. The pattern of betting suggests that he may have the same hand as yours but then there are some players at the new River Rock that tend to overbet sets and hope that the board pairs.

[DeeJ]

Bet. I think he's got 64 and you can call the check-raise...

[mike l.]

you should bet unless it's that one kid you keep checking the nuts against on the river. if it's him you should check again.

[Pot-A]

Check the river. You put the last bet on the turn, remember? The only way a bet gets you any more money here is if he's dumb enough to go crazy with 64. He'd have to be a pretty big fish to do that. Is he that big of a fish? If he is it's possible he flopped a set and just couldn't believe you would raise with something like 96 or 64. His check on the river might mean he's convinced you could have KK.

Most likely he has 96o and stopped raising when he realized you were on a freeroll.

[mostsmooth]

could be he made a set on the turn, thinks you were betting bigger set. but then again, bad players usually dont think.
theres only one realistic hand he could be betting on the turn that you can beat 46 (would go that far with 78?)
normally id say check it, youve gotten way more from the pot than could be expected if you win, and if youre beat, you saved 1 or 2 bets. but is this guy that went 10 bets now all of a sudden capable of a check raise after filling? usually the people i play with that make a hand wouldnt risk not getting paid and would bet out.
ahh heck, im still gonna say check it to the 5s full /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Diplomat]

As everyone has already said, I'd bet. I doubt many players are balsy enough to go for a checkraise here.

-Diplomat

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
All fold to me in the cutoff and I raise with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Button folds, SB folds, BB calls. BB is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop.

Now, before you go on reading and making any comments, I don't need a twoplustwo lecture on stealing with 9-6 suited. I would like you to comment on my river play and that's it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, this ain't Burger King! You don't get to have it your way! Why don't you tell us why you raised here when you have this particular player in the BB?

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet.

he's got 6-4 and you can fold to the c-r.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

You're folding the nut straight for one bet on the river against a player who "is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop"? No way, no how. I bet and call a raise. I've never played above $15/$30 but there is no way I can see folding this to the villain described here.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, he went TEN BETS on the turn...he has the same straight, a lower straight or a set...period...the board paired, he expects you to call after he raises, therefore he has a boat.

since he'll likely just call i think he has 64.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, he went TEN BETS on the turn which means there is way too much money in there to fold against a player who "is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop". You're telling me this guy doesn't have less than a boat 4% of the time if he raises the river? I am not questioning your logic, I am questioning the idea that you can fold the river at 25:1. I think that fold would be absurd.

SpaceAce

[DcifrThs]

see egg on face post later on down the string.

gotta call...but even moreso, gotta bet.

-Barron

[Lawrence Ng]

I decide to bet one more time, and I got check-raised and called.

No, Mike, it's not the kid, this guy was not as bad and aggresive as the kid, but close.

BB showed K-7 offsuit.

Yes, the steal of was off timing but in good position to do so and at the time I was getting a little too much respect on my raises so I had to vary the play up a little.

I was seriously going to check the way down if I did not hit because I knew the BB was capable of calling me down with even Queen high so I would not bluff him out.

There's a debate on whether or not 9-6 suited warrants a steal against a loose blind who is very defensive, but I flopped a pretty decent flop for my hand and couldn't ask for more.

[Diplomat]

I'm still trying to figure out why you checked the flop, despite your justification.

-Diplomat

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Lawrence:

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
BB is very loose and plays way way to many hands and bets too much with anything post flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, does it make sense to raise with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif before the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
BB checks, I decide to check because I know I'm going to get called down with Ace high, any pair, and my attempt to steal so far has failed so even though I flopped an open ender and a backdoor straight draw. I figure there is no point wasting anymore money unless I hit and I'm a dog on this flop for sure if BB called me.


[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be making your decision here for the wrong reasons. You appear to have realized that you never should have played the hand and so now want to bail out. The fact is it now doesn't matter if you never should have played the hand since you are playing the hand. You need to make your check or bet decision based on the board, the action thus far, and your opponent. I think a bet is clearly correct.

As for your river play, does it matter very much? Given the size of the pot, he should automatically call you with some hands that you can beat such as a smaller straight and something like 87 which gave him two pair on the flop (which he overplayed) and is now a ruined two pair. He'll also probably raise you with a full house which you'll pay off.

I guess the real question is would he put all those bets in with just a set on the turn. Clearly he doesn't have KK and probably not 88 in his hand since he probably would have reraised preflop with those. So it seems to me that you are trying to figure out whether a check or bet in a spot that matters little is correct while there are other spots in this hand where your decisions are clearly highly questionable.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Lawrence:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the steal of was off timing but in good position to do so and at the time I was getting a little too much respect on my raises so I had to vary the play up a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you described a player who wouldn't be paying any attention to how you play. So even though some of the others might be giving you too much respect, this person certainly won't. Furthermore, he proved that's the case by going all those bets with you on the turn.

Best wishes,
Mason

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
see egg on face post later on down the string.

gotta call...but even moreso, gotta bet.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I see it now.

SpaceAce

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
BB checks, I decide to check because I know I'm going to get called down with Ace high, any pair, and my attempt to steal so far has failed so even though I flopped an open ender and a backdoor straight draw. I figure there is no point wasting anymore money unless I hit and I'm a dog on this flop for sure if BB called me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to bet the flop here. I'm sure the main reason you raised w/ this weak of a hand here is because you felt you could outplay the bb after the flop. Sure he'll call you with A-high, any pair, etc. but do you really want to allow him to charge you on the turn with these hands. Bet the flop and check behind on the turn (if unimproved) here.

Just out of curiosity, looking at the results would he have checkraised his 2 pair on the flop or waited until the turn?

Also, do you think he would have gone to felt maybe w/ 64? Judging by how he played this hand, I think he probably would have.

I'd check behind on the river since you have to pay off a checkraise and the fact he stopped raising probably means he doesn't have 6-4. He certainly can't put you on 9-6 here.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, does it make sense to raise with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif before the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe Mason is the only one to have said anything about this.

[Diplomat]

Probably because:

[ QUOTE ]
Now, before you go on reading and making any comments, I don't need a twoplustwo lecture on stealing with 9-6 suited. I would like you to comment on my river play and that's it.


[/ QUOTE ]

That said, I do agree with Mason.

-Diplomat

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, does it make sense to raise with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif before the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe Mason is the only one to have said anything about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

because the original poster basically said he knew it was wrong. or at least something to the extent that he didn't want to discuss it.

-Barron

[ike]

This is 20+ BB HU pot. People do silly things in these situations and folding to the checkraise is not ok.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd check behind on the river since you have to pay off a checkraise and the fact he stopped raising probably means he doesn't have 6-4. He certainly can't put you on 9-6 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

When a reasonable player goes 10 bets on the turn, that overrides any previous information you have from earlier in the hand. It doesn't matter what he did preflop, he's often got the nuts. I think the villain can put you on 96 just fine.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd check behind on the river since you have to pay off a checkraise and the fact he stopped raising probably means he doesn't have 6-4. He certainly can't put you on 9-6 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

When a reasonable player goes 10 bets on the turn, that overrides any previous information you have from earlier in the hand. It doesn't matter what he did preflop, he's often got the nuts. I think the villain can put you on 96 just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]


If he went 10 bets w/ 2 pair (not even top 2) I'd almost guarantee he goes to the felt w/64. I've seen things like this happen several times. When a very Laggy and very stupid player gets the 2nd nuts, and it is unlikely his opponent has the nuts, they just won't stop raising. By the way the river went down, I think the bb most likely put him on a set of 8's I don't think he'd try a checkraise after the board pairs if he puts hero on the straight rather than the underfull.

[Senor Choppy]

It's not raising with 96s I have a problem with, it's doing so with the big blind as described. If that's the reason the poster didn't want to discuss it, that's fine, but that's not how I interpreted it.

It's also strange to post a hand where the decision you make has almost 0 effective on your long term results, where there is such a glaring leak that could turn a winning player into a losing one fast.

[Apocalypse]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a debate on whether or not 9-6 suited warrants a steal against a loose blind who is very defensive, but I flopped a pretty decent flop for my hand and couldn't ask for more.


[/ QUOTE ]

You put the ", but" in your sentence like it adds more than absolutely zero to the discussion you are referring to. I respectfully disagree /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[tom]

surely it has to be a split pot with villian holding 69c? don't c how a bet would gain u anything. good thing a club didnt come on river.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
But you described a player who wouldn't be paying any attention to how you play. So even though some of the others might be giving you too much respect, this person certainly won't.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think he was saying that he was trying to make an impression on the big blind. Since this player is described as calling too much, this clearly isn't the guy he wants respecting his raises more. He is saying that the rest of the table is respecting his raises too much and that he hopes that showing down 96s will make an impression on them. Even though his opponent on the hand isn't observant, he still has the possiblity of influencing the players who are by showing this hand down. And if you want to show down a bad hand, that means you have to play a bad hand; so choosing to play it against the worst player at the table can be a sensible decision (assuming the "observant" players aren't only observant about the hands in which they are involved and that they will incorrectly think that your raise here is representative of how you will play against them). Not that I'm saying I like the raise with 96s, but I think it is a little more sensible than you are giving it credit for.