when to fold pocket pair with overcard on board?

[phifediggy]

i just started playing 2/4 limit and i got schooled on this hand: i had QQ in the BB and i raised to $4. got three callers. the flop came with a K and two small cards, two diamonds. third to act bets, i call and so does second to act. the turn is a small non-diamond. third to act bets, i call for $4, second guy calls. river is another blank. no flush out. i check. second guy checks. third guy fires another $4. i had thought maybe someone was on a flush draw but at this point i'm figuring one of the two have a king, so i fold, even with the pot being around $40. second guy calls. turns out he had nothing, because the third guy had JJ.... which i would've beaten had i called with my QQ. i'm just looking for general advice, e.g. when to fold or call the turn or river bet when you have a pocket pair with an overcard or two on the board.

[Pubknight]

I wouldn't have read someone with a King, as I think a King would have raised or check raised off the flop.

Both played pretty passively, like they were on draw hands, or had pocket pairs under a king.

Your preflop raise and betting had them probably putting you on AK.

For one bet, I call on the river.
You hadn't seen anything through the action on the hand to indicate you were likely beat.

[Jonny Melon]

The problem isn't calling or folding on the river with this hand. The problem is you check called it from the flop to the river, and you played it terribly weak-tight. Why would the guy with JJ not think he had the best hand here? Why do you automatically think a King must be out there? Why would you call the flop and turn on a made hand, only to fold to a river blank? You can't know where you stand on a hand like this by check-calling.

Jon

[Keats13]

Preflop: fine
Flop/turn: bet out until they give you a reason not to.
River: since you've shown no agression post-flop, you have to call getting 9 or 10:1 here, as you have not done nearly enough to determine with 90% accuracy that someone has a K or better.

[prayformojo]

QQ with a K high flop, and the person to your right bets into you. Ideal.

Raise the flop. Protect your hand. There is no calling here. Folding is bad, but calling is impossible. If you don't have best hand right now, you are drawing to two outs, but your Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif out must be significantly discounted because it puts three to a flush. The K does not mean someone made Kings. This is a time for believing you have best hand until someone tells you otherwise. If you can't accept this, fold, because you're never going to get the odds to draw even to two clean queen outs. The hand plays completely differently from here.

But you didn't raise, and a rag comes on the turn. Again, player to your right bets. Raise. For all the same reasons as above.

[umaga]

Agree. Be more aggressive early to confirm you are beat. If not then you have to call the river.

In Middle Limit Holdem Ciaffone said something along the lines of - If you are wimpy and somebody kicks sand in your face you don't know whether the guy is tough or preying on your weakness. If you are aggressive and a guy kicks sand in your face you can be a lot more sure the bully is someone you dont want to tangle with.

[phifediggy]

wow, thanks to all of you for the replies and the advice. i definitely played that hand too weakly.

If you folded every time you had KK-TT and an overcard hit the board, you would be leaving a lot of money on the table. Until someone gives you reason to believe otherwise, pretend you have top pair.

[slogger]

[ QUOTE ]
Your preflop raise and betting had them probably putting you on AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, the flop came K-high. You think his opponent bet into him believing tht he had TPTK?

[slogger]

Bet the flop. You raised preflop and the flop brought one of the two cards that every low limit player fears from a preflop raiser. Represent the King.

Checking and calling is a terrible habit to get into. You had control of the hand with your preflop raise - then you simply gave that control away. The flop bettor could have anything.

Then you check and call again? If you think you're behind, you should be folding, not calling. You don't have the correct odds to draw to a set here.

Assuming you've already check-called both the flop and turn (bad plays for the reasons described above), you must call at least one more because there are now 9.5 big bets in the pot. If QQ is good even 10% of the time, it is correct to call one bet when there are 9 or more bets already in the pot.

[slogger]

Hero is in BB. I made same mistake on first read (mostly because he didn't mention checking the flop, and I couldn't believe that he would have).

[Trainwreck]

I'm sure it's been said over and over, but I didn't read other responses:

Don't fold those to one bet since you got to the river, take one last drink....

>TW<

[tolbiny]

line breaks, or paragraphs or whatever... include your action every hand. Did you bet the flop and get raised? is there anyone between you and the lp bettor? The better your details the better the advice.

[prayformojo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is in BB. I made same mistake on first read (mostly because he didn't mention checking the flop, and I couldn't believe that he would have).

[/ QUOTE ]

You're quite right. Hero's the PF raiser and the action comes first to him, so he should bet out. I don't want it to sound like I encourage trying a check-raise on this flop. Hoping for a chance to check-raise this flop would be preposterous.

That said, if you were in later position and bet into, great spot to check-raise.

[phifediggy]

bottom line: i gave up the initiative and checked the flop when i should have bet. lesson learned.

[BaronVonCP]

Do not call the flop or the turn if you are just going to fold the river. It just doesn't make sense.