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adios
08-27-2004, 02:56 PM
When more obviously biased article questioning the truth about Kerry's military service. A couple of excerpts:

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

and

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

and

94 pages of records unreleased?



Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

Kerry needs to release these records to clear this up. If the records showed that he, Kerry, was right beyond a shawdow of a doubt they'd be released in a heart beat.

Plot thickens after checking records (http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html)


Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB Advertisement






In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon



B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations



But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?



Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

cardcounter0
08-27-2004, 02:58 PM
These aren't new questions, it is the same old crap.

Toro
08-27-2004, 03:44 PM
This crap is precisely the reason why we don't get better candidates running for high office. Do you really give a rat's asss about this stuff?

cardcounter0
08-27-2004, 03:51 PM
We have a quagmire in Iraq, Bin Laden is still running around in Afganistan, the Taliban is rebuilding power, The Chinese are stealing our jobs, unemployment is higher, the market is lower, The U.S. Treasury is empty ...

Yep, a purple heart that was awarded in 1968 is about the number one priority I can think of. What could be more important?
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Toro
08-27-2004, 04:47 PM
No you misunderstood my post. My point is that the constant character assisination makes it unpalitable for good qualified people to seek higher office.

adios
08-27-2004, 05:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This crap is precisely the reason why we don't get better candidates running for high office.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for telling me I didn't realize I had so much influence.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really give a rat's asss about this stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I do. Kerry has promoted his Viet Nam service as a key qualification for his being elected president. If the guy has totally misrepresented his record of service and received at least some of his medals fraudulently then I think that's something that's worth knowing. This is especially the case since Kerry and the DNC have made Kerry's service an issue. Don't most people believe that character counts? If you don't care about don't read about it. Just vote for Kerry.

Toro
08-27-2004, 11:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This crap is precisely the reason why we don't get better candidates running for high office.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for telling me I didn't realize I had so much influence.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really give a rat's asss about this stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes I do. Kerry has promoted his Viet Nam service as a key qualification for his being elected president. If the guy has totally misrepresented his record of service and received at least some of his medals fraudulently then I think that's something that's worth knowing. This is especially the case since Kerry and the DNC have made Kerry's service an issue. Don't most people believe that character counts? If you don't care about don't read about it. Just vote for Kerry.

[/ QUOTE ]

My you have a high opinion of yourself if you think that I was referring to your influence. I was referring of course to the blatant character assisinations that take place during election campaigns for high offices.

And I was referring of course to the same blatant character assisinations in my statement of giving a rat's asss.

I similarly disregarded the stuff said about W four years ago. The sooner we get this type of thing out of politics the better off the country will be. But as long as people such as yourself so easily latch onto this stuff, I don't hold out much hope for that.

MMMMMM
08-28-2004, 12:10 AM
Jeez, Toro...who brought it up? Kerry. Who made an issue out if it in the first place? Kerry. So it isn't an issue of character assassination, is it? If the candidate himself raises the issue, don't blame others for taking a closer look at the candidate's claims regarding that issue--and at how those claims square off with reality..

adios
08-28-2004, 03:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The sooner we get this type of thing out of politics the better off the country will be. But as long as people such as yourself so easily latch onto this stuff, I don't hold out much hope for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what issues have you brought up lately? How Jeb is trying to "steal the election" again?

Toro
08-28-2004, 08:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The sooner we get this type of thing out of politics the better off the country will be. But as long as people such as yourself so easily latch onto this stuff, I don't hold out much hope for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what issues have you brought up lately? How Jeb is trying to "steal the election" again?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's something that unfolded before our very eyes, not some crap made up to smear someone.

Toro
08-28-2004, 08:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Jeez, Toro...who brought it up? Kerry. Who made an issue out if it in the first place? Kerry. So it isn't an issue of character assassination, is it? If the candidate himself raises the issue, don't blame others for taking a closer look at the candidate's claims regarding that issue--and at how those claims square off with reality..

[/ QUOTE ]

How did Kerry make an issue of it? By stating that he served his country in time of war? That makes him fair game for character assisination? So by your rules of the game, whatever is on your resume is fair game to be distorted. Please!

Utah
08-28-2004, 09:06 AM
"That's something that unfolded before our very eyes, not some crap made up to smear someone."

No. Its complete crap. And its exact purpose is to smear someone. No proof. Zero. Nada.

Toro
08-28-2004, 10:31 AM
That was a smear campaign in Florida four years ago? Cmon you don't really believe that do you? It was what it was. There were a bunch of disputed ballots in the deciding State and Gore did what anyone would have done. He tried to get a recount. That's not a smear campaign in my book.

And Bush did what anyone would do. He used the power and influence of his brother the Governor to block the recounts and perserve the victory.

Utah
08-28-2004, 10:47 AM
To say that Jeb tried to steal the election is a complete smear unless you have some evidence. Where is your evidence.

btw - the courts decided the recount issue, not Jeb Bush.

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 11:18 AM
Can you prove the sun rises in the east?
That's what I thought. Show me proof.

Toro
08-28-2004, 12:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
btw - the courts decided the recount issue, not Jeb Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are very naive.

Toro
08-28-2004, 12:26 PM
I'm sick of this pisssing contest because this stuff is just typical republican bs to try and make a Kerry asset into a negative. This is what I 'know' about Kerry and Vietnam.

1. Vietnam War was arguably the biggest foreign policy mistake in the history of the country.

2. While a lot of us used student deferrments, National Guard, Canada, CO status to avoid going over there, he went.

3. While he was over there serving, a lot of us College students and others protested against the war. We were branded pot smoking hippie commie loving cowards who hated their own country.

4. When Kerry got home, knowing that the War was a huge mistake became a vocal leader of Vietnam Veterans against the War. It was at this point that the anti-war efforts finally turned the corner and had some effect on changing our governments failed policy. This took courage and leadership. This is what I take from Kerrys Vietnam experience and not how severe his wounds may or may not have been.

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 12:31 PM
do you have any proof for these wild liberal claims?

Toro
08-28-2004, 12:34 PM
Yes they will be detailed in my new book! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Utah
08-28-2004, 12:35 PM
Where's your evidence?

Its very easy to make accusations (did you know Kerry raped three girls in college). Providing evidence or proof is a much harder task.

And, if my memory serve me, there were a few court cases on the Florida recount. Call me naive, but I distinctly remember them.

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 12:37 PM
Just more lies from the Northeastern Elite Liberal Establishment who control all media.

Utah
08-28-2004, 12:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sick of this pisssing contest because this stuff is just typical republican bs to try and make a Kerry asset into a negative.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not a republican and I am not a Bush supporter. So, to me, and others, this isnt just Republican B.S. Recent polls reflect this is swaying voters.

Lets look at what we know shall we:

[ QUOTE ]
Vietnam War was arguably the biggest foreign policy mistake in the history of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, that is an opinion, not a statement of fact (even if I agree with it).

[ QUOTE ]
While a lot of us used student deferrments, National Guard, Canada, CO status to avoid going over there, he went.

[/ QUOTE ]

What we know is that he did serve, as so did many many others. What is still in question is whether he left early through bogus purple hearts. There is also evidence that Kerry sought a deferrment. If one gets credit for serving over someone who didnt serve, wouldnt it be logical to "demerit" someone who left early versus someone who served their full term?

[ QUOTE ]
While he was over there serving, a lot of us College students and others protested against the war. We were branded pot smoking hippie commie loving cowards who hated their own country

[/ QUOTE ]

fact. But so what?

[ QUOTE ]
When Kerry got home, knowing that the War was a huge mistake became a vocal leader of Vietnam Veterans against the War. It was at this point that the anti-war efforts finally turned the corner and had some effect on changing our governments failed policy. This took courage and leadership.

[/ QUOTE ]

What we do know is that Kerry protested against the war and testified to congress. We dont know why he did it. He could have easily done it out of political opportunism - how do you know he didnt?

other facts:
1) Kerry presented very wrong facts about his Cambodian Christmas "experience" - even though he claimed they were seared in his memory
2) Kerry's commander and the his immediate superior on the boat during the first purple heart incident didnt think he deserved a purple heart
3) Kerry has admitted to war crimes
4) Kerry said that 250 Vets told him about atrocities - however, Kerry cannot provide information on a single atrocity
5) Kerry has not released all his war records
6) There are vets, not all republicans or conservatives, that dispute Kerry's assertions of fact
7) Kerry has played politics with his Vietman experience

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 01:06 PM
1) Kerry presented very wrong facts about his Cambodian Christmas "experience" - even though he claimed they were seared in his memory

do you have any proof of any facts being presented that were wrong?

2) Kerry's commander and the his immediate superior on the boat during the first purple heart incident didnt think he deserved a purple heart

Since a commander and/or immediate superior recommendation is necessary to get a purple heart, how is this possible? Do you have proof of this grand "give Kerry a medal" fraud?

3) Kerry has admitted to war crimes

Please provide link where Kerry says "I committed war crimes"

4) Kerry said that 250 Vets told him about atrocities - however, Kerry cannot provide information on a single atrocity

Wait a minute! First he admits to war crimes, now he can't provide information on a single one?

5) Kerry has not released all his war records

Please show evidence of missing records.

6) There are vets, not all republicans or conservatives, that dispute Kerry's assertions of fact

And? Point? There are vets, not all republicans or conservatives, that dispute the world is round.

7) Kerry has played politics with his Vietman experience

Please show evidence or proof of this playing of politics.

Toro
08-28-2004, 01:07 PM
You're too entrenched to listen to anything I have to say so I'm done with this. I'd rather do something I enjoy like play poker than spar all day with close minded people.

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 01:10 PM
do you have any proof or evidence of Utah being closed minded? Could you provide a link?

Utah
08-28-2004, 02:10 PM
Say whaaaa......

too bad you are unable to agrue effectively. Maybe its best that you go play poker.

Not sure how listing out the undisputable facts and backing away from opinions as a starting point for discussion is close minded. My guess is that you dont like the list of facts and that it somehow challenges your fragile and unfounded beliefs.

Oh well

Utah
08-28-2004, 02:17 PM
I dont mind a good online razzing - in fact, I rather enjoy it. However, your little attack in not clever, funny, well founded, or logical. HEY - I Get in Now! Dumb of me - its just like all your posts, which are not clever, funny, well founded, or logical. I should have seen that connection from the start.

Hey, I hear there is an extra seat at Toro's poker table. You might want to jump in and save this forum from being cluttered up with your mindless posts.

Not sure why you dont like facts, evidence, and proof when you are making an argument. My only guess can be that you dont like evidence because it rarely if ever supports your beliefs. Can you give me another reason? Call me crazy, but I like evidence when listening to arguments.

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 02:27 PM
Where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence?
Where's your evidence?

Jeeez....

Toro
08-28-2004, 02:30 PM
You're so full of yourself.

cardcounter0
08-28-2004, 02:33 PM
Where is your proof or evidence of this so-called "fullness"?

Toro
08-28-2004, 02:38 PM
It will all be revealed when my new book comes out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif