Final $60-$120 Hand

A typically, tight-aggressive 9-handed $60-$120 gmae with a $40 small blind and a $60 big blind. A middle player limps in. A top pro sitting right next to him raises having the Ad-Qd. The cutoff, the big blind, and the limper all call. There is $520 in the pot and four players. The flop arrives with: Kd-9c-7s, giving our hero a backdoor nut flush draw with an ace overcard.It is checked to our hero who bets. The cutoff raises. The big blind folds and the middle limper calls. There is now $820 in the pot and it costs our hero $60 to call. He calls. The turn is the 6d. The middle limper checks. What should our hero do?


I will post the results later.

Nothing wrong with checkcalling although that seems to be taboo to a lot of guys who post on the net.


I don't see how a bet by the hero can look credible given the way he played the flop. He is apt to get smoked again on the turn.


The limper's coldcall of the cut-off's two bets is good news and bad news. The bad news is that he may have a whopper which again militates against hero betting even if cut-off was just horsing around on the flop. The good news is that the cut-off may similarly be worried about the limper's coldcall and decide to check rather than bet the turn. Hero of course gains when this happens as he gets a freebie.


I would check the turn in the hero's shoes.

He should check and call.


With the player on his right calling two bets cold on the flop, it is not the time for "advanced" plays like checkraising the turn.

Check and call. Very low prob. of winning pot right there. Following through with a bet on the river seems like an even worse idea. The pot is giving odds for the draw. Why dilute them?

When in doubt,

bet them out.

When running cold,

muck and fold.

Raise them back

and watch them crack.

When raised again,

you're drawing thin.


Jimbo

Looks like a bet to me. Why the final 60-120 post?


Are you moving on to something else?

When the top pro got raised on the flop, shouldn't he just fold his hand since he has nothing? I don't see why he should continue with his hand.

Can I ask what made that flop an automatic bet for the hero? He's betting into three other players with a thin thin semi bluff, but it seems the chances of him taking the pot here are quite slim so I'm not sure a semibluff is merited.

It is almost like the hero bets, and then calls the raise since he now has odds for the overcard/backdoor flush draw, but he only created those odds for himself by throwing in cash when behind.


Anyhow, i agree with SKP, given your action on the flop, a bet on the turn just screams diamonds. However a check raise could represent Bullets or A set of kings, with that cold caller in there, its a dangerous play. I'd check and call like SKP.

You bet the flop because in thess games, there is a good chance you take it down right there given a K97 rainbow flop.


I suppose I shouldn't talk like I know "these games". I don't. I have never played 60-120 at the Bellagio...or anywhere for that matter. But even in the 15/30 and 30/60 games at the Bellagi (which I have played), this flop bet works often enough to make it profitable. Also, the flop bet does not have to go uncontested to make it a good bet. Getting it down to one opponent is often enough as his mere call may give you valuable info on his hand which you can then use to perhaps win the pot on the turn with another bluff bet. The key guy you want out on the flop is the dude to your left as that then gives you position on all subsequent rounds.


Hero had 3 opponents on the flop. If he had two, he has a clear bet. If he has 4 or more, he probably should check. With exactly three opponents, the decision is close. But like I said, particularly in the Bellagio games, a bet seems like a good idea to me.

When last to act

It is a fact

That when in doubt

Just bet them out.


If one on one

I'd shoot my gun

And hope he mucks

Ere river sucks.


But in between

With no pair seen,

It's not a stall

To check and call.

thanks skp

An abject lesson in creativity Andy. Very good!!


Jimbo

The hero's play on the flop is questionable, but now he has a 4 to 1 shot for the nuts, perhaps with other outs(an Ace). He should check and call. A semi bluff bet won't work here, if CO and/or middle limper have any pair or even a straight draw, getting at least 8 to 1 pot odds.

With just under 14 sb's in the pot why call the raise on the flop. I don't know the exact odds on both a running straight AND flush but they can't be much better than 20 to 1. Consider the posibilities of getting tied on by an ace(which may be no good) and the likelihood of the middle position player holding something like J-T(a double gutshot draw on the flop) and more outs are gone, especially(and I realize that this is the worst case scenerio) if that J-T is in diamonds. The raiser could have A-K.


I'm not one to look for a snake under every rock(or however that expression goes), but I've tried hard to learn how to pick my battles in holdem, and this one doesn't seem worth continuing when raised on the flop. By the way, is the hero calling the bet on the flop with the intention of calling the turn if he picks up a gutshot draw? This doesn't seem to be correct, especially if the caller is also still in. The call on the turn gets about 9 to 1 immediate odds on the 11 to 1 gutshot AND that's if one of the other players isn't holding that card. Again it seems like calling the flop and playing out the hand, is a situation where the best you can hope for is about a neutral EV, but one in which many situations can can lower that by quite a bit.


Just my thoughts,


Mike

....hero is lucky enough to catch about as good a card as he could hope for(not counting the J or T of diamonds), dramatically improving his originally questionable(atleast that was my view) odds. As someone said above, why dilute those odds again with a check raise or bet that may be raised(here's another pitfall that I forgot above, if the cutoff has a set, two less outs for the running flush and the A is still no good). Besides, it's not like you can represent a good hand that decided not to reraise the flop to see if a draw got there on the turn--there was no draw on the flop(except for the J-T double gutshot), so a bet would seem really unnatural.


Mike

No, I have more hands but this is the final hand from a particular session of $60-$120 I had played about a month ago.

Our hero has an ace overcard plus a backdoor nut-flush draw. There is $820 in the pot and it costs him $60 to take off a card with no possibility of any further raising. He is getting almost 14-to-1 current pot odds. His ace overcard could easily be an out (giving him top pair, top kicker) which is a 15-to-1 shot. His backdoor possibilities are worth about one out. I think his hand is the functional equivalent of playing 4 outs which is an 11-to-1 shot with 14-to-1 current pot odds so he has a tiny overlay. I think his call is close but reasonable.

Our hero checked. The cutoff bet. The middle limper and our hero both call. There is $1240 in the pot and three players. The river is the Ah, giving our hero top pair, top kicker. The middle player checked. Our hero bet and only the cutoff calls. Our hero wins a $1560 pot as the cutoff showed the Kc-Qc.


I thought the whole line of play seemed normal to me. But a top $30-$60 pro thought our hero should bet the turn. He is unlikely to get raised, he may win the pot outright by betting, and he has as many as 12 outs when he gets called.


I posted this because I wanted to see if anyone would bet the turn. I wouldn't. It seems like most of you guys wouldn't either. I feel better now.

I guess I have a couple of questions. What hand did you put the cutoff on? It seems that if he had ak he probably would have 3 bet preflop and if he had JTs he probably would have checked the turn and taken a free card. I guess I make that assumption ruling out the possiblility of a set of 9's maybe being the only other hand he may have. But my big question is what if the MP limper would have folded to the bet on the turn? Would checkraising the cutoff then be a viable option representing a hand such as AA or KK in hopes of getting the cutoff to laydown and if he doesn't you still have draws to the nuts with the Ace overcard???

I think the flop bet is borderline. I assume all players involved are decent, so the hands played here, even from big blind will be "sensible". The board is semi-coordinated and the King is always bad news for AQ. The backdoor flush and straight draws as well as the strong Ace overcard makes it tempting to see the turn, but it's no disaster if the cut-off bets after being checked to and Hero is isolated out of the pot by a check-raise. His hand is pretty weak.


Oh well. The bluffing potential by betting out on the turn, unless this is normal play for Hero with hands such as AA or AK in this spot is zero to none. The only reason I can see for the betting the turn is actually hoping cut-off raises again to perhaps clean up the outs for the Ace overcard?!? Call and hope for a couple of customers. In fact, a rivered pair will probably be easier to play should more people see the river.


lars

the creativity and inspiration came from you.

"He is unlikely to get raised, he may win the pot outright by betting,..."


A guy raises the pre-flop bettor on the flop and another guy calls two cold in front of the pre-flop bettor. And now a virtual blank arrives on the turn (at least what should be a blank to the pre-flop bettor). It doesn't look to me like this pot will be for sale on 4th street.

Sorry. Substitute pre-flop raiser for pre-flop bettor. Bedtime.

The thirty sixty player was probably wrong to think you should bet. He is likely a 2+2 disciple who follows our maxim that betting when there is even a slight chance of winning immediately is more often the right play than most people think. Especially with lots of outs. His mistake was in not realizing that there was practically no chance at all of winning immediately. What worres me however is that most of you may not realize how small his mistake was. He could make ten such mistakes before he would undo what he gained from making one similar play that was right. A right play that I hope this thread doesn't dissuade you from doing.