Weak tight, Right, or very wrong

[tom]

Since i have been accused of not posting content, here is a hand that i played. i am not the hero in this hand (as another famous poster would say):

party 15/30 with usual loose players. bb is superlag, mp is decent, but very straightforward player.
Hero is button with kqs

5 players limp (including mp), hero limps. sb completes.

superlag raises, all call.

flop ad kd kc

checked to hero. hero bets, super lag raises, folded to mp who calls, hero re-raises, superlag caps, mp calls. rest fold.

3 to turn.

turn 5s

superlag bets. mp calls hero calls.

river 2c.

superlag bets. mp calls. hero calls.

results later.

[stoxtrader]

this is a must-raise pre-flop.

otherwise, you played the hand well, as a BB raise into 6 players is often AA, KK or AK, and since he can't have KK, I put him on AK.

[slavic]

No preflop raise? That almost seems criminal.

[James282]

I would raise the turn 10000000% of the time. People slow play made full houses in that game. You need to jam it like crazy. I would cap the turn if it came back to me for 3 bets.
-James

[Wayfare]

I'm extremely surprised you didn't raise the flop and didn't raise the turn...if you are so sure he has AK why don't you just fold to the one bet?

Also you could get the player in the middle out if he has a diamond flush draw.

[tom]

after the flop checkraise, after all check, how can i put the superlag on aa or ak? how could he checkraise the aa or ak in that spot?

[DcifrThs]

JESUS CHRIIIIISSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTT

that is amazing

you need to ASK whether this is a mistake or weak tight...dude, a) get out more and live a little. b) i don't even know and i'm so dumbfounded by this post i'll just post street analysis content.

preflop: ATs analysis from david sklansky in 1999 or 1998 and reprinted and used by ed miller last year. what is a bigger mistake, not raising ATs on the button after 7 limpers or calling with 72s??? answer: NOT RAISING W/ ATs...that being said, if you don't reaise preflop with kqs in the #1 best absolute position what game are you playing? you want superlag to raise in the bb and build a nice massive pot here with kqs...go for it.

flop: duh.

turn: RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!! RAISE!!!!!!!!

river: see turn.

19th hole: hang head in shame and throw down a shot of something and i dunno what else but im through here...


sorry...im just killing time (as you can tell) before coilean and i go try our hands and heads at the ameristar.

-Barron

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
after the flop checkraise, after all check, how can i put the superlag on aa or ak? how could he checkraise the aa or ak in that spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point - I didnt think about the flop action too well. Having noticed this, how can you possibly justify not getting more bets in on the turn and river?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a must-raise pre-flop.

otherwise, you played the hand well, as a BB raise into 6 players is often AA, KK or AK, and since he can't have KK, I put him on AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

im board. can't tell if you're joking. can't tell anything really. i've seen you play. you seem to know what you're doing. gotta raise.
-Barron

[stoxtrader]

bored? you seem a bit drunk actually. enjoy the ameristar. y, A raise on the turn and river is a must. my mistake.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
after the flop checkraise, after all check, how can i put the superlag on aa or ak? how could he checkraise the aa or ak in that spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point - I didnt think about the flop action too well. Having noticed this, how can you possibly justify not getting more bets in on the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i cannot take tom seriously after his/her best players on party 15/30 post so im really just havin some fun killen time hungover so please don't take anything i say on here too seriously.

dont really even know the point of this post either...i think i had one...

THERE IT IS /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

nope... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

i lost it... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

-Barron

[tom]

Not sure what the other famous poster means by I am not the hero in this hand. But what i really meant was that i was not the hero in this hand.

superlag me has aa and i take the pot
mp has kj

how could the hero in this hand (not me, remember i am superlag)not raise at least a few times? i actually thought i played this hand well, but being a result oriented guy, i guess not.

[stoxtrader]

why would you as super lag c/r the flop and face the entire field with 2 bets?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you as super lag c/r the flop and face the entire field with 2 bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

see my post about not taking tom seriously...

-Barron

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]

Hero is button with kqs
5 players limp (including mp), hero limps.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have the best position with a strong starting hand that plays well multiway, I raise here 100% of the time.

Beyond that, I would be throwing a raise in (especially vs a SUPERLAG) on the turn here when you have MP trapped in the middle.

AA/AK/55/22/K5/K2 are the only hands you are worried about here come the river...

What would MP call 2 cold with on the flop? Decent and straight forward player, I can't imagine 55/22/K5/K2...and figure he is raising both AK and AA preflop (not limping), so I have him on some other K or A with a mid/weak kicker.

Super lag could have anything maybe even AK/55/22 given his preflop raise of the field (as you are saying you are not the hero, I am assuming you lost).

Nevertheless, with a superlag betting, and a questionable hand for MP that may trap him into calling between you and superlag, I'm raising some bigger street here at least once...if you get re-raised or MP comes to life...then slow down.

As you are closing on some of these streets and have the option to raise the field with a very strong hand, I would say that may indeed be weak-tight if you were afraid of the few hands that could beat you or feared being re-raised here (as ANY K weaker than yours will do).

Just calling, closing the action with a player caught in the middle holding KQs on an AKK52 board...seems quite wrong to me here, especially given the condition of these two players.

What were YOU thinking when calling (rather than raising)?

[AviD]

Take it easy big fella! Decaf is in the orange pot! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Take it easy big fella! Decaf is in the orange pot! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...im just messin around before some poker...turns out i hurt my foot and cannot run so its shower and ameristar.

-Barron

PS- i think i'll have to watch this a million times more but:

Marge: do you know this judge.
Lionel Hutz: well i may have accidentally run over his dog with my car.
Marge: [gasps] oh my.
Lionel Hutz: actually, replace accidentally with repeatedly and dog with son.

[tom]

i thought that someone had exactly kq/kj/k10 with the limp and would continue to raise (as advised) by this board.

deception value count for anything here? if someone did have kq/kj/k10 as i thought, how could they put me on aa? after checkraise? i felt the other hands would fold to the button bet anyway.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
i thought that someone had exactly kq/kj/k10 with the limp and would continue to raise (as advised) by this board.

deception value count for anything here? if someone did have kq/kj/k10 as i thought, how could they put me on aa? after checkraise? i felt the other hands would fold to the button bet anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok ok...i'll apologize for my posts but give some serious opinion.

on that flop with the nut boat, the relative value of your hand is not going to change for all intents and purposes. the ONLY card that is going to make you ever even possibly lose is the last king. you should check the flop and let somebody catch a diamond for a flush or a Q or J or T for a broadway straight and then bet to get them to raise so you can reraise after you deceive them with a check call on the flop.

-Barron

[tom]

thanks for the reply. i am sure that you are right in general. after seeing the kq and kj after the fact, i thought i made a good read, and played it very well, but that is probably the "i cant believe they didnt raise and re-raise me" thinking i had. the way i figured it, i tought that the check raise i made on the flop with the nuts had good deception value (given my read), and that a flush draw would not fold anyway and would even like to see the pot bigger.
maybe one of these days i will learn to not out think myself, and not play like the newbie i am.
i have lurked a long time, and have learned a lot from your posts.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the reply. i am sure that you are right in general. after seeing the kq and kj after the fact, i thought i made a good read

[/ QUOTE ]
What kind of read are you talking about online? There is no read.

Dcifr is right, you flopped an absolute monster and the others have at most 1 out against you. Let them think they have a chance to catch up, don't kick them out.

[tom]

by read (agreed that there are very little online) i meant that i figured from all pre flop limping that a kq/kj/k10 hand was surely out there as well as a pair or flush draw hand. i didnt mention in the initial post that the table was loose, but everyone usually folded without a hand especially when a or k flopped.

even with the flop check raise, i figured any pair or flush draw would call two cold (since the intial bettor was button), and would call for the size of the pot (if they intially called the two cold which it turned out they didnt). any non pair non flush draw hand was going to fold anyway since the button bet.

my tinking would be that if i had a pair or flush draw one of the other seats, i would not fear the button bet or superlag check raise because how could the button or superlag reasonably have any hand where a pair or flush draw has no outs? the button would surely check the flop with a full house, and the superlag would surely not check raise after all have checked and button bet.
i may be wrong, but doesnt the superlag raise before flop, and check raise after flop scream out "maybe a hand, but if a hand, then the type of hand that doesnt want callers type hand"?

i c ur point though, and maybe next time i just call the button bet. though very unorthodox, i still feel my play was at least close, and worth discussion. maybe my play is a better 30/60 or 40/80 play than 15/30 play?

[ike]

Its almost not an issue of what they put you on, even if they read you for garaunteed not-a-boat you still lose callers by making it two bets cold to them. The checkraise is bad, is bad in every game, and isn't close. The reason its a standard play to checkraise with trips and standard to just call with the boat is that they are clearly the correct plays for indisputable mathematical reasons.

[Boris]

I really have to question your self assessment as a superlag given that you didn't get pumped up the pansy with trip kings.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
even with the flop check raise, i figured any pair or flush draw would call two cold (since the intial bettor was button), and would call for the size of the pot (if they intially called the two cold which it turned out they didnt). any non pair non flush draw hand was going to fold anyway since the button bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why would any pair call 2 cold? They are getting 9.5:1 with a decent chance that it'll be reraised behind them and the possibility that they're drawing dead to AK. That's not when you want to be calling for what is at best a 2-outer. Flush draws are a different story (though some players may fold them as well). This flop check-raise is really indefensible.

[ QUOTE ]

i c ur point though, and maybe next time i just call the button bet. though very unorthodox, i still feel my play was at least close, and worth discussion. maybe my play is a better 30/60 or 40/80 play than 15/30 play?

[/ QUOTE ]
The only difference at 30/60 and 40/80 is that this play would be costing you even more money than at 15/30.

The latest issue of Card Player has an interesting article on check-raising by Barry Tanenbaum. While some of the lines he advocates are actually weak-tight, the article makes a few good points. Take a look at it.

[tom]

thanks again. i will check out cp. maybe i am getting too much into the minds of the party players, but in my mind, the typical party player does not consider pot odds.

also, who could have ak? the button surely wouldn't bet ak when checked to on the button, and the superlag surely couldn't have check raised ak on the flop given that he would not want anyone to fold.

maybe my deception play is too obviously a deception play and thus didn't fool anyone into calling?

[tom]

you make a good point. at the time, i was raising a lot of hands with speculative holdings (in my im having fun today mode), and so thought that i was percieved as a superlag, but maybe i was wrong on how i was percieved. if i thought that i was being percieved as anything but a superlag, then i would have played the hand in a purely straight forward manner.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
also, who could have ak? the button surely wouldn't bet ak when checked to on the button, and the superlag surely couldn't have check raised ak on the flop given that he would not want anyone to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]
So what, you're saying that people are going to call 2 cold with confidence on an AKK flop when there was a raise preflop and a raise on the flop? Would you do that if you were in their shoes or would you fold?

I'm not saying that there aren't players who won't call 2 cold here. The point is that you're presenting them with a tough decision and typical players will fold here. Make it easier for them to call. Help them "catch up" with their flush draw or bottom full house if they manage to hit it. They'll cap it for you on later streets.

[ike]

You have the near-mortal nut. You want people to call. Thus, your play is good if and only if people are more inclined to call two bets than one. People are not more inclined to call two bets than one. Thus your play is not good. What part of this do you disagree with?

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]

dont really even know the point of this post either...i think i had one...

THERE IT IS /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

nope... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

i lost it... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Laughed out loud. I thought this was spot on.

You have to give it to tom though, he's on the verge of creating a flaming thread with his "best players" post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

.. and here I am in his thread. tom, you rock!

[DeeJ]

There's a player on Paradise called LionelHutz /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Shame the actor is no longer with us, he was class.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a player on Paradise called LionelHutz /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Shame the actor is no longer with us, he was class.

[/ QUOTE ]

he was supposed to be captain zap brannigan on futurama before his wife took both their lives b/c he cheated on her or something like that...i dont claim to know why it happened but she unloaded an entire clip into him and then killed herself...

he was one of the greatest and funniest men to ever grace the screen...

-Barron

[tom]

thanks. i figured this board needed someone to shake things up a bit. too much "but he didn't have the pot odds to call" type posts. my point is: even at the 15/30 or 20/40 level, many players dont consider pot odds. a lot of times they dont even consider what the other person has, and will base their decisions strickly based upon their own hand.
p.s. dc is a funny man indeed.