83o push?

[ilya]

Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: Digger49 ( $1370 )
Seat 5: adewese ( $2400 )
Seat 6: queenahrts ( $1385 )
Seat 7: mrzarembsky ( $790 )
Seat 8: WRXtasy_03 ( $750 )
Seat 9: vtornik ( $1305 )
Trny:5479868 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to mrzarembsky [ 8c 3s ]
WRXtasy_03 is all-In.
vtornik folds.
Digger49 calls [750].


Blinds going up next hand; anybody push here?

[jah0550]

Are you serious? If you even have to ask that question, go back to play money.

[jeeves]

Not with a caller already in front of you. Since this is about as bad a hand as you can get, I would have to think you're better off pushing next turn with any two cards and hoping for just one caller than calling now with rags against two other players.

You're going to be horribly shortstacked either way, so you might as well wait for a better opporunity than 83o.

[The4thFilm]

LOL

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Not with a caller already in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only considering this _because_ there is a caller in front of me.

[Pubknight]

[ QUOTE ]

Dealt to mrzarembsky [ 8c 3s ]
WRXtasy_03 is all-In.
vtornik folds.
Digger49 calls [750].

Blinds going up next hand; anybody push here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, the question is: would anybody push here?
To which my answer is yes, I have no doubt that there are people that would go all in in that scenario.

Personally, I would not be one of them.

[jeeves]

Ok, I'll admit I'm not the best player around. Educate if you must, but doesn't the fact that a shortstack's desperation all-in has been called by someone who is also shortstacked indicate that the caller has strength? Why would you choose to go all-in here when you almost certainly have the worst of the three hands?

[stupidsucker]

You are in the BB?

If so do you mean call all in with 83o?

not me.. I wait for the next one. You are going in a 3way pot with nill chance to win the hand. Sucks to be getting blinded out, but 83o call is not where I make my stand.

My question is what hand did you have UTG that you either threw away or lost with? If you are considering call/pushing here with such a terrible hand why didnt you push UTG previously?

[Phill S]

hmm. just to play devils advocate. i can see reasons to call.

1, your in the BB, so if you fold youve got just under 600 (if memory serves).

your getting 2-1 on your call as itll be a triple through.

what if the other two have AK, or big aces, or other such scenarios where they share outs (which is likely).

are you a big underdog, yes, can you win it, yes (unlike suckers idea that you have nil chance, itll be bigger thanyou think), do you need to risk this much on this hand, its up to you.

ive put money in on 72 before, sometimes desperation calls for odd moves. this isnt a great hand, or a great opportunity, but its certainly an opportunity.

i think too many of you are saying fold because thats what seems the best move. you dont want people to put you down fo suggesting otherwise. but i can see arguments to calling here.

and would i do it? im not ruling it out. i read an article a fair while back by a big pro player on the european circuit. he talked about when he called an all in with 85 against two opponants. he figured (rightly) they both had AK, so this was a great opportinity to turn his small stack into a fairly large stack, bringing him back from the brink.

now what this all depends on is this:
1, do you figure the other two to be good to great players, the better they are the better it is for you
2, do you need to move here, can you come back form what your left with
3, are you willing to suck it up. lose and re-start in another game in 5 minutes
4, would you prefer that noone will see you make this move and insult you as being stupid (and worse) when it either comes off or not

Phill

[sirtimo]

Nope.... I'd wait. I've got enough chips to get around to the next blind so at least I'd like to see some paint or sooooooted cards before pushing. Besides, your all-in guy either busts out(upping you a spot)or doubles up against the caller taking him (the caller)down to less than your stack.

Regards,
Timo

[ilya]

Ok, I guess I should explain myself a bit since almost everyone seems extremely hostile to the idea of calling (pushing, technically, but the difference is 40 chips and I'm sure the caller isn't folding) and bewildered that I asked the question.
My thinking goes something like this:
I almost certainly have the worst hand, but it's quite possible that my opponents' hands have overlapping outs, improving my 3-way odds substantially. At worst, I'm about a 9-1 dog; there are plenty of plausible scenarious, though, where I'm as little as a 3-1 dog (e.g, I'm up against ATo and AQs). On average, I'm probably 5-6:1 or so.

Unfortunately, the pot is only giving me 3:1 odds (it's 1800 and I would be pushing for 590), so it doesn't look like I should call.

However. If I call and win, the field will be down to 5 and I will have 2440 chips. I will be one of the two big stacks, and I'll be in a great position to bully the two medium stacks to my left. I'm almost assured of making the money and have quite a good shot at winning.

If I fold, I will have 590 chips left and will either be by far the shortest of 5 or one of the 2 shortest of 6. Worse, since the blinds are going up to 150/300 next hand, I won't even have 2xbb in my stack, and will therefore have no folding equity whatsoever. My chance of making the money would be small, never mind my chance of winning.

Since I can figure to be about a 6-1 underdog in this pot, on average, I think I can call if I figure my EV will increase by 7x from winning this pot.

Now I think that's probably not quite the case...but it seems to me to be fairly close. Plus, if I lose, I can immediately start a new one. If I win, I've also succeeded in speeding the game up. So I'm thinking it may be right to push after all.

Ok, this is obviously just a sketch of my argument, and I don't find it entirely convincing myself....but I do think the decision is a less clear one than many of you seem to believe.

Cheers,
ilya

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is what hand did you have UTG that you either threw away or lost with? If you are considering call/pushing here with such a terrible hand why didnt you push UTG previously?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was actually down to 345 before pushing UTG with 99 and doubling up.

[Dominic]

I like your reasoning...it's not as horrible a call as some are making it out to be...the only time you're way behind is if one (or both) of the other all-ins have a PP above 8...

It's an interesting scenario, though...not sure I'd call, but you made a convincing argument that to do so might be the right play...