Shellshock (AJs)

[prayformojo]

I am still dizzy from a marathon B&M 5/10 session last night. My normal casino mix of tight/weak and loose/passive exploded into an insane experiment. The hypothesis: we can turn hold'em into bingo if we really try. It was all thanks to one man, completely new and (I assume) independently wealthy, who autobet/raised every street. EVERY street. EVERY hand. He played 11 hands in a row blind to the showdown, capped each time. And people were coming along for the ride. The average pot hovered around 40BB, getting as big at one point as 68BB. Position became virtually meaningless. Raises were not for the purpose of knocking people out, getting a free card, or any other subtle trick that makes up the game of poker. The only way to win this game was to have best hand at showdown.

With that in mind, would anyone play this differently? CO is generally a tight/weak player, but has been playing at this table for 3 hours and is caught in the wave. In two orbits I have seen him push Ace high twice, and second pair/top kicker twice to the river against the maniac and at least one other opponent. UTG is, of course, the maniac (although he really was a very nice guy).

5/10 10 handed.

Preflop: Hero is in MP1with A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG(Maniac)<font color="red"> raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero color:red] raises</font>, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, Maniac<font color="red"> raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero<font color="red"> caps</font>, all call.

Flop (19.4SB): 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)

BB checks, Maniac<font color="red"> bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero<font color="red"> raises</font>, CO<font color="red"> raises</font>, BB calls, Maniac<font color="red"> caps</font>, all call.

Turn (19.7BB): Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)

BB checks, Maniac bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, CO<font color="red"> raises</font>, BB calls, Maniac<font color="red"> raises</font>, CO<font color="red"> caps</font>.

River (35.7BB): 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)

Maniac<font color="red"> bets</font>, Hero calls, CO<font color="red"> raises</font>, BB folds, Maniac<font color="red"> raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final pot (I may be off on this): (49.7BB).

Can anyone else fold this at any point? Please tell me I was right, and if I wasn't, please for the love of God tell me I was wrong because he's coming back on Saturday.

[MoreWineII]

No, you're not folding at any point, obviously, as you've got TPGK and a draw to the nuts. By the time you get to the river, the pot is too big to consider folding.

Do you live in OR or WA by chance? I'd love to meet this guy.

[tolbiny]

i would make sure to raise the turn: here's why-
The maniac has any 2 cards, and you want him to have every opportunity to three bet if you can.
Also the c/o still might have some sanity left- Every time he is ahead of you he will raise (and you are calling anyway) but there are a few times when he is behind that he might decide to call with. You dont want it going one bet on the turn.

[mattman19]

Prayformojo,
I think u correctly played the hand up to the flop. The reraises on and after the flop seemed neccesary. Obviously its not the maiac but Co who you were worried about. But once the flop was reraised and capped you had to understand that you weren't winning the hand. When Co comes over the top of a raise and reraise he is representing two pair or a set. Obviously the flush draw was intriguing with all of the betting action. But what u failed to realize is that playing the draw into a proboble set or two pair is very unprofitable. By the time you reached the river you shoud've laid it down in anticipation of capped betting. Ide love to hear the results. Personally i would put Co on A 8.

[MoreWineII]

I think mojo was working off of this read:

"With that in mind, would anyone play this differently? CO is generally a tight/weak player, ***but has been playing at this table for 3 hours and is caught in the wave. In two orbits I have seen him push Ace high twice, and second pair/top kicker twice to the river against the maniac and at least one other opponent.*** UTG is, of course, the maniac (although he really was a very nice guy). "

CO could have anything at this point. Ace weak kicker is just as likely as a set or two pair here, I would think. And God only knows what maniac has.

[prayformojo]

[ QUOTE ]
But what u failed to realize is that playing the draw into a proboble set or two pair is very unprofitable. By the time you reached the river you shoud've laid it down in anticipation of capped betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offence, but unless I make a specific statement about my belief about my opponent's hands, please don't tell me what I "fail to realize". No offence, but read Ed Miller's section on not folding the river in huge pots. No offence, but read Morewine's post after yours, and take another look at my read on CO. No offence.

[prayformojo]

[ QUOTE ]
But once the flop was reraised and capped you had to understand that you weren't winning the hand. When Co comes over the top of a raise and reraise he is representing two pair or a set. Obviously the flush draw was intriguing with all of the betting action. But what u failed to realize is that playing the draw into a proboble set or two pair is very unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just realized for the first time that you were advising that drawing for the flush on the flop was not a good idea.

Having recently read the "influx of bad SS posts" thread, I am taking Bison's recommendation. I will go out on a limb to say that THIS IS BAD ADVICE. The flush draw is not "intriguing". It is probably going to win the hand. An ace is also probably going to win the hand. A jack is also probably going to win the hand. More importantly, with five people in on the flop, any club, jack or ace is going to win the hand far more than 20% of the time, making every bet/raise/cap profitable for me.

If I'm wrong on this, please let me know.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]


If I'm wrong on this, please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who says you shouldn't get a ton of money in on the flop has some learning to do.

Even on the turn, with the nut 4-flush and 5 players in... not to mention a maniac in the hand who will pay you off on the river, I believe you want to get as much money in as possible.

Somebody tell me if I'm wrong, too.

[MoreWineII]

You're both wrong. Muck preflop. Having not done that, muck TPGK and nut flush draw on the the flop. Having not done that, muck it on the turn. Having not done that, fold the river in a ridiculously huge pot.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You're both wrong. Muck preflop. Having not done that, muck TPGK and nut flush draw on the the flop. Having not done that, muck it on the turn. Having not done that, fold the river in a ridiculously huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's quality advice.

I don't see how you could have played this any differently.

Rob

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
But what u failed to realize is that playing the draw into a proboble set or two pair is very unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh really...

[ QUOTE ]
Personally i would put Co on A 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so you put CO on A8. How many outs does Hero have on the turn vs A8? How many bets is he putting in the pot? How big is the pot at the end of the turn betting?

Figure these out, then come back and justify folding.

[bdk3clash]

I think u correctly played the hand up to the flop. The reraises on and after the flop seemed neccesary. Obviously its not the maiac but Co who you were worried about. But once the flop was reraised and capped you had to understand that you weren't winning the hand. When Co comes over the top of a raise and reraise he is representing two pair or a set. Obviously the flush draw was intriguing with all of the betting action. But what u failed to realize is that playing the draw into a proboble set or two pair is very unprofitable. By the time you reached the river you shoud've laid it down in anticipation of capped betting. Ide love to hear the results. Personally i would put Co on A 8. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=962248&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#962248)

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I think u correctly played the hand up to the flop. The reraises on and after the flop seemed neccesary. Obviously its not the maiac but Co who you were worried about. But once the flop was reraised and capped you had to understand that you weren't winning the hand. When Co comes over the top of a raise and reraise he is representing two pair or a set. Obviously the flush draw was intriguing with all of the betting action. But what u failed to realize is that playing the draw into a proboble set or two pair is very unprofitable. By the time you reached the river you shoud've laid it down in anticipation of capped betting. Ide love to hear the results. Personally i would put Co on A 8. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=962248&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#962248)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice one /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MoreWineII]

POTD Nominee.

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell me I was right, and if I wasn't, please for the love of God tell me I was wrong because he's coming back on Saturday.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[razor]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[prayformojo]

CO has K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif for a pair of queens
Hero has A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif for a pair of aces
Maniac has 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for an absence of the laws of probability.

My greatest victory: knowing that even this hand could not put me on tilt. After 5 hours at this table I regained my minor losses from earlier in the night and came out just better than even. The maniac played this way for 8 hours and came out 20BB to the good. At one point he was 190BB down, and at another 180 up.

As an aside, I had AA cracked by 99 with a KA995 board. Quad 9's over AAA99 boat. As a further aside, the bad beat jackpot at my casino was over $17K, and requires AAATT or better beaten by quads or better.

[tolbiny]

As an aside, I had AA cracked by 99 with a KA995 board. Quad 9's over AAA99 boat. As a further aside, the bad beat jackpot at my casino was over $17K, and requires AAATT or better beaten by quads or better.

as much as i hate bad beat stories- gotta love that one.

[MoreWineII]

That's a nice jackpot. My cas requires quads beaten and it it set at $10k.

As an aside, I had quad 4's beaten once there and got $5k of it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: Bummer about that hand though, but nice going on not letting it tilt you.