A classic hand protection problem -- small 2-pair

[Jonny Melon]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button folds.

This flop play is what plagues me here. No one has shown strength. I want to C/R a late position bet here, but I don't have any indication that I will get that. The table was somewhat, but not overly, aggressive. This hand getting checked through would be a catastrophe. Is betting and hoping for an EP raise the only way to protect my hand on the flop?

Turn: (6.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Anyone try to be tricky and C/R, hoping someone has a K and will bet it?

River: (11.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19.50 BB, between Hero, UTG+1, MP1 and MP2.</font>

[pokerkai]

Id play it the same way. With a hand like this, and being unsure about who and where is going to bet out, I just lead.

I have a really hard time believing MP1 has 47 or 24 for the rivered straight and the turn action tells me he didnt flop it. Run into a spiked 33?

[Entity]

Often my line on hands like this is to check-call the flop, then (especially if the betting comes from LP) check-raise the turn. If the betting comes from EP (on the flop), then I'd lead out the turn, and hope that EP raises it.

Rob

This is the same way I'd play it, and I think it's the right way. Two pair is a very strong hand, and it doesn't need protection. You need to get your money in the pot when you have the best hand. Anyone with a 9 or a straight draw isn't going anywhere, regardless of having to call two cold. If another 9 comes, or the straight draw comes in and you get counterfeited, so be it. Until then, get your money in with the best hand.

[StellarWind]

Sorry, there's not a lot you can do. That's limit hold'em for you. You could try to checkraise either the flop or turn but you will miss very often.

There are so many opponents that most players won't venture a button raise without a real hand.

Usually I play it like you. The two possible checkraises are useful for variety.

[MoreWineII]

I might check-raise the turn here. Chances are that King probably hit somebody. I think there is a good chance that a.) someone will bet, and b.) I still have the best hand.

I'm not expecting to thin the field with this raise, obviously, but would it not be good for value?

[MagicRat]

FLOP: As you said, nobody's shown any strength so you can't be sure of a bet from anyone and try to protect your hand with a C/R. Betting out, I believe, might also get rid of gutshots (getting 8:1 on 10.5:1, they should fold, right??) and 3-card flushes?? Certainly don't want to give free cards.

TURN: I like your line of thought here about someone maybe betting out if they have a K but once that possible flush draw hits the board I bet out immediately, again scared of giving free cards. Is that o.k. line??

RIVER: (**)It happens - sometimes. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
Id play it the same way. With a hand like this, and being unsure about who and where is going to bet out, I just lead.

I have a really hard time believing MP1 has 47 or 24 for the rivered straight and the turn action tells me he didnt flop it. Run into a spiked 33?

[/ QUOTE ]

mp1 posted. he probably has 47, 24, or maybe 2 pair. 78 is also a possibility.

[J.R.]

This flop play is what plagues me here. No one has shown strength. I want to C/R a late position bet here, but I don't have any indication that I will get that.

For whatever its worth, the more multiway the pot the less certain you need to be in identifying who will bet the flop, becuase of the greater probablity someone has something. Sure a meek hand may be scared of betting given the size of the field but I think this factor is outweighed by the fact that the pot is a nice size and people like to bet in Party 2-4 games, although less so than at higher limits.

The table was somewhat, but not overly, aggressive. This hand getting checked through would be a catastrophe. Is betting and hoping for an EP raise the only way to protect my hand on the flop

a) I don't know if protecting you hand is your primary goal here, given you don't fear overcards with your two pair and only really fear 5 out pair plus kicker draws (which are les ikely out there given you can account for one 5 and one 6), gutshots, pocket pairs catching a set and runner-runner draws. I don't include OESD becuase they aren't going anywhere regardless of your efforts.

b) Having the hand get checked thru isn't a catastrophe if you check-raise over half the time and/or no one has much of anything when it is checked thru.

c) given a somewhat aggressive table I really like a flop check-raise, as with 6 opponents someone is likely to bet and with just somewhat aggressive opponents and no flush draw (a common flop raising hand), its seems unlikly to be raised if you bet.

I think you should bet the turn and hope a K raises so you can 3-bet, the K is a scare card if no one has one and a likely raising card if someone does (because if they are calling with overcrads they have to think there overcards are outs so why would they not raise when they pair their overcard outs).