pg. 88 SSHE

[Smokey98]

Can someone please explain what is being said in the first complete paragraph on that page?

[Flawed]

The smaller the pot is post flop compared to the size of the bets the better off the expert player is, so by raising you gain preflop but lose slightly postflop (also when you raise preflop its tougher to get in a raise or check raise on the flop or turn)

If youre an expert player would you rather play Limit holdem or No Limit holdem?

anyone else find it funny that the guy who encourages you to bet everything when bonus whoring to increase EV is the same guy that wrote a book for small stakes hold'em?

[BugsBunny]

Hopefully Ed will correct this if it's wrong /images/graemlins/smile.gif

There's a trade off to be made by raising preflop. With a good hand a preflop raise is automatically +ev, it will win more than it's fair share so any additional money you get into the pot is more profit for you.

The trade-off to that preflop raise is that you're postflop edge goes down (you won't make as much, percentage wise, on postflop play in a raised pot as you will in an unraised pot.

(What's not said at this point is that a smaller ev of a larger pot can still be a higher profit, it depends on exactly how much you lose postflop compared to how much you gain preflop - which in turn depends on the hand in question. Some hands lose more postflop equity after a preflop raise than others do. If a hand is a large preflop favorite, but only loses a little postflop ev than the raise is overall still favorable. If the hand only gains slightly by a preflop raise, but loses a lot in postflop ev in the process, then you're better off just calling preflop.)

Still in this paragraph he says that one of the reasons that you lose postflop equity is that you tie yourself to the pot.

(In a smaller pot you can fold a lot of thinner draws or marginal made hands that you should play out in a larger pot. By raising preflop you're forcing yourself to play more hands longer postflop, and a lot of those hands will ultimately be losers)

[Flawed]

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Still in this paragraph he says that one of the reasons that you lose postflop equity is that you tie yourself to the pot.

(In a smaller pot you can fold a lot of thinner draws or marginal made hands that you should play out in a larger pot. By raising preflop you're forcing yourself to play more hands longer postflop, and a lot of those hands will ultimately be losers)

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I dont agree with ed on this one you dont lose post flop equity because youre tied to the pot. Since we're talking post flop we ignore our preflop call or raise. So would you rather be drawing to a mediocre draw because the pot is large or would you rather fold because the pot is small. Drawing is +EV folding is 0

[BugsBunny]

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[ QUOTE ]

Still in this paragraph he says that one of the reasons that you lose postflop equity is that you tie yourself to the pot.

(In a smaller pot you can fold a lot of thinner draws or marginal made hands that you should play out in a larger pot. By raising preflop you're forcing yourself to play more hands longer postflop, and a lot of those hands will ultimately be losers)

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree with ed on this one you dont lose post flop equity because youre tied to the pot. Since we're talking post flop we ignore our preflop call or raise. So would you rather be drawing to a mediocre draw because the pot is large or would you rather fold because the pot is small. Drawing is +EV folding is 0

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You're looking at it as only one hand. You have to look at a lot of hands played out. And remember we're talking only postflop ev here.

There will be times when you flop a strong hand, even with the small pot. When you play in those pots you have a very strong edge (high +ev). So your overall postflop ev is very high in an unraised pot situation (you only calculate ev for those hands that you actually play postflop. The hand that you fold on the flop wouldn't count - they don't exist since there was no postflop play, and we're only talking about postflop play here.)

Take the same hand in a raised pot. Now you're playing out hand's with a smaller edge, and often losing with them (since the edge is small). You also play the hands that would have been strong in a small pot (usually, in some cases a strong hand in a small pot may be a weak hand in a large multiway pot, but you still play it because of the pot odds). So you're playing more hands at a smaller overall edge.

Bottom line your postflop edge is smaller. (sum(high edge) / small number > sum(smaller edge) / larger number) However, as I mentioned in my post, a smaller edge does not necessarily equate with smaller profits, although it may. This comes down to (again as I stated previously) what the exact hand in question is and also depends on other variables such as number of players, position, etc

[Smokey98]

Um...ok! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Flawed]

he says you lose post flop because you are tied to the pot. What if all your opponents played correctly post flop would you still say you lose post flop expectation because youre tied to the pot? No, you wouldnt, so you dont lose
post flop expectation because youre tied to the pot you lose post flop because its less likely your opponent will make a mistake if you raise preflop.

Lets say your heads up against an opponent who always folds on the flop if he doesnt hit atleast middle pair or 8 outs. When you raise are you losing equity post flop because you're tied to the pot? no since this opponent is the exact opposite of a normal weak opponent you are gaining post flop because by raising you are increasing the chances your opponent will make a mistake.

Thus the reason post flop expectation changes is because typical loose oponents will be making correct calls if you raise preflop and would make incorrect calls if you didnt.

So a tip for all you players who like to see the turn and river with weak hands, Raise Preflop!