Mirage 20-40: Defending my button against a steal

A very loose player got into a stealing frenzy this afternoon. And, I was in the worst possible position when he went on his rampage.


These three hands happened in succession.


Hand #1


Folded to the button who open-raises. Small blind folds. I'm in the big blind with a trash hand and fold.


The button acted dissapointed that nobody called.


Hand #2


Folded to the cutoff (same player) who open raises. Button folds. I'm in the small blind with a trash hand and fold. Big blind folds.


The cutoff acts dissapointed again.


Hand #3


Folded to "Mr. Happy Stealer" on the right of the cutoff. He open-raises for the third time in a row. Cutoff folds.


I'm on the button with AcTc. Looks like it's 3-betting time! Small blind folds. Big blind calls. Stealer calls. 3 players see the flop for 3 bets.


The flop is: Kd,Js,4d


Big blind checks. Stealer checks. I bet. Both players call.


The turn is: Kd,Js,4d,7h


Big blind checks. Stealer checks.


What's your play here?


And on the river depending on your turn action?

I think I'd be inclined to bet the turn also. In lower limit games I see players call one bet on the flop and then fold to the aggressor when a blank hits on the turn all the time.


If I get called I'd hope for a free showdown and expect my A high to beat a busted flush draw.

Anyone with a King or a Jack would have bet by now.......your reraise shows that you have either AKs or AK or AA or KK or even JJ or QQ. Therefore depending on your image, you might be able to bet the turn for value, hoping that someone is on a draw and misses and then you can bet the river when they check to you again. It's one of those hands where if you don't bet, you can't win. And you may even risk being bluffed.


Also any of these guys are likely to have bet out a draw too, so looking at the big picture it doesn't look like any of these guys have a hand except for Ax and your position gives you tremendous advantage.


Betting the turn also shows that you don't want to give free cards to the diamonds.....so I think it's the right play.


-Betting this hand if you are behind would be poor judgement but the fact that they both checked on both the flop and turn, show that they can't have much of a hand.


that's my opinion, but becareful because "MR. HAPPY MAY PAY TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE."


On the river it's tough decision and judgement, if everyone checks to you, you have to bet. There is no way else to win this pot. No one can't have any part of this flop........ I'd be surprised if they call your turn bet too.....

not everyone called....probabaly just "Mr. Happy."

I would probably check the turn and then check/fold the river. With that board and your hand you are probably in second place at best. Any decent player would realize you 3-bet on the button to isolate the loose raiser (which is exactly what you did) and that you didn't necessarily have a premium hand. Furthermore, with that board and that much money in the pot already it is very likely you will get at least one call all the way to the river by a better hand. Futhermore, if you are playing against bad/unobservant opponents who do not realize the move you made, they will not bother trying to read your hand and will probably call you down anyways with any decent hand because of the size of the pot and that is what bad/unobservant players do. I think your best bet here is to not voluntarily put any more money in the pot (assuming you don't improve on river), unless the loose raiser bets the river and you have a tell on him he may be bluffing and you are pretty sure by the big blinds body language he will not overcall (Not likely, but I have seen it happen). Better opportunities will come around to make a stand, this looks like one fight that cant be won.

Havent read the other responses.


I would check it through. The K and J on the board represents a real problem for you IMO. A lot of hands that your opponents will play preflop the way they did contain a K or J or have some kind of straight draw and might not fold anyway.


If it where heads up I think you should have bet, but now with two players I would take my free card.


On the river I would do the following. If bet, called...then fold. If check, bet.....then look to your left and if you dont see anything then I would probably call, but it's close. If bet, fold....then I'm more likely to fold, because if BB is bluffing he has to worry two players instead of one, and therefore making it a bit less likely that he's on a total bluf.


Regards

Dynasty,


I don’t like taking a free card here. If you miss and a blank comes, you end up facing a river bet all too often, and it isn’t one you want to pay off (but may have to).


If you bet and either player calls, only bet the river if you make the straight, or perhaps bet the ace against one opponent.


If you bet and get checkraised by the BB and the Stealer cold calls, call and only pay off when you make your inside straight. Note that a diamond queen may be no good in this sequence but you still have good odds. If the Stealer doesn’t call, all your straight cards are good, and you still have odds for your inside straight.


There are other sequences but I’ve got to get back to bed.


Regards,


Rick

Keep on betting!

I bet and act according to the players actions. I check the river if unimproved. The only hand I can see you beating right now is A-off suited and Q-10 if these players will call or raise with these hands in this instance. You need to bet to induce a fold, because the winnrs that will lay down will do it now but will not on the river for 1 more bet.


Swiss Cheese

Now way to do you take the free card on the turn. Bet. If one player folds then bet the river even if you don't improve. the pot is big enough now that the river bluff doesn't have to work very often to be profitable.


One other possibility is to take the free card on the flop. If both players check again on the turn then a turn bet will take the pot very often.

If the the agressive player bets on the turn you can raise as a semibluff/steal and this will quite often win you the pot as well.

I am shocked that everyone said bet. I would check the turn most of the time. I figure you are behind here 85% of the time.


However, if you do bet the turn, I wouldn't showdown my ace high. I would continue bluffing on any card hoping to push my opponent/s off a better hand.

I think this is one of those real tough situations that is player dependent. If your opponent caught a piece of the flop and will check-raise you, then let him down and check behind him. If they are the type to fold to a BB on the turn, then you need to bet. I don't know how much I want to invest in a flop full of draws when nobody drops to my flop bet. A lot of your outs are dead. Go ahead and check. If you get bet into on the river, and believe your ace high will take it, it costs the same. I've recently started to change my thinking in these situations, and have decided that until my game is a bit stronger, I want my tough decisions to be made cheaply.

checking the turn sounds OK if you plan to just give up on the hand if you don't improve.


But I'm not a big fan of the "bet flop-check turn-fold river" sequence. I do know that I like to play against these types of players. I would not have bet the flop if I planned on checking the turn. I would not have bet this particular flop just because it is so likely you will get at least one call. But once you decide to bluff I agree that you might as well do it right and keep firing when everyone shows weakness.

I've been in this type of spot far too often the last few days. If the blind hadn't called, I'd fire again on the turn, but since you're up against two players(including the blind who called two bets cold preflop), I'd take the free card. The river? If I don't improve, I would likely muck to any bet and I would not try to steal it. Qd call or bet--don't raise. Ad? The stealer is more likely to be on a flush draw but I'd probably call either player since I've been paying off like a slot machine, more on that in a future post maybe.


Mike

After I made this post, I realized that something influenced my turn decision which wasn't in the post. I'm not sure whether or not it should have influenced my decision- but it did.


About 20-30 minutes earlier, I had dragged in a monster 30 big bet pot. I had 4-bet out of the small blind with KK in a 6-way pot and then flopped top set. 3 players put in 4 bets on the flop (plus 2 extra bets from another). 3 players put in 3 bets on the turn and my top set of Kings got paid off on the river by a bottom set of 2's (who cold-called 3 bets pre-flop on the button with 22). Obviously, I was the last person to bet/raise on every street in that hand.


So, I was thinking "If I bet, they will probably think I have it." Therefore, I bet the turn. The big blind folded. Stealer called.


The river is: Kd,Js,4d,7h,Qc


Clearly, I've just gotten very lucky. More lucky than I realized.


I bet. Stealer check-raises me! At first, I thought "Great, I would have won with a river bet but now I'm splitting with another AT". I 3-bet. He very reluctantly called so, of course, my straight took the whole pot. He showed QJ for a flopped middle pair and a rivered 2-pair.


Should the 30 big bet pot I dragged in earlier influence my turn decision to bet? I thought my aggressive play on that other hand gave my turn bet more credibility.

You got real lucky. Like I stated in my post above, I've recently started checking in these types of situations. The Q or A non-flush cards are your only outs, and A high won't take it often enough against these types of players. The extra 2 bets the knuckle head threw in rarely happen, so normally you would lose more by not hitting than the one extra bet you normally gain when you do hit.

As an aside, what would you have done had he check-raised the turn?

I would have called a turn-checkraise and called if an Ace came on the river.

Well executed. Your reraise on the river was excellent.

I just wish I was a good enough player to raise with the nuts on the river. /images/smile.gif

I know why the reason people don't like it. That is because the bet comes of the river very often and they fold feeling bluffed. Well in the cardrooms I play in, players that bet the river on the end have no pair beat a high percentage of the time. And to my shock they check the river with nothing all the time. I believe the bet the flop, check the turn, fold the river sequence is simply good eventhough it feels bad.