Ugh... concede or call on the river?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Please rip me a new a-hole... I played like crap... I will try to justify my moves below...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

BB ($54.55)
UTG ($13.35)
UTG+1 ($23.75)
MP1 ($67.30)
MP2 ($19.50)
CO ($38.95)
Button ($58.65)
Hero ($47.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to $1</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls $1, Button folds, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50.

Terrible position, but I couldn't throw this away for $0.75.

Flop: ($5) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, BB calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 folds, CO folds.

A wimpy small bet, but at this table I felt that it would stop anyone else from taking control...

Turn: ($11) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to $6</font>, UTG+1 calls $6, Hero calls $4.

Tried the same thing I did on the flop... trying to represent TPWK... then I had pot odds to go for the flush

River: ($29) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to $40</font>, UTG+1 calls $14.75 (All-In)...

First: BANG! Made the flush... then OUCH! What do I do?

[nrinker]

id say call, nut flush, seems like you got him beat, whats he repping? full house? no real raise preflop if he had kings, I mean the fact is you played bad early on, and left yourself in a nasty position. Seems like you got him though.

[ScottTheFish]

If you're gonna draw to the nut flush with a pair on board, you should be ready to go to the felt with it if you hit.

Maybe there's a boat out there, but I think you'll see trip Kings more often. I'd call

[metsmaniac823]

What were the results of this hand? I'd think a set of kings from the heavy raised vs Kings up from the smaller all-in, though I could be way off of course since the boat is out there.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

I said "Boat?" in the chat... no response... I said "I guess I have to pay to see."

I did pay. I did see. BB had K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Small stack had K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. (Although he claimed to have AK in the chat -- caught his lie when I looked at the hand history.)

Even though I played it poorly I don't know if there is anyway I don't end up committing my stack.

[tabish]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though I played it poorly I don't know if there is anyway I don't end up committing my stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm new to the forums, so take my advice with a grain of salt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think the most suspect thing here is your play on the turn. If you were representing TPWK on the flop and want to continue with that, you've now improved to trips and should be putting down a much stronger bet than $2. A full house or trips with strong kicker is likely to raise you back, in which case you can consider abandoning the hand. If you just get a call, then there's still the possibility that someone is slow-playing a made full house. And of course you don't know which club will pair someone's kicker to give them a full house.

All in all, a very dangerous hand. It's tricky chasing a flush after the board pairs - if you make your flush, it's very hard to differentiate between trips with a good kicker and a full house. On this particular river, I think I would call. The pot is paying about 3:1 on this call, and I'd guess that your chances of winning are better than that.

[Wayfare]

Quote: "Tried the same thing I did on the flop... trying to represent TPWK... then I had pot odds to go for the flush"

Ummm you don't bet $2 into a $11 pot trying to represent anything but weakness. $8 freeze bet would have been better and had some folding equity.

On the river I say you must call if you're going to draw to the flush. Lots of worse hands pay you off here.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote: "Tried the same thing I did on the flop... trying to represent TPWK... then I had pot odds to go for the flush"

Ummm you don't bet $2 into a $11 pot trying to represent anything but weakness. $8 freeze bet would have been better and had some folding equity.

On the river I say you must call if you're going to draw to the flush. Lots of worse hands pay you off here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree -- I should have bet more on the turn. Bet was way to weak and I was out of position. Of course, if he popped me back with a small reraise (as he did) and the short stack called, I would likely have assumed trips and had odds to call for my flush draw.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm new to the forums, so take my advice with a grain of salt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think the most suspect thing here is your play on the turn. If you were representing TPWK on the flop and want to continue with that, you've now improved to trips and should be putting down a much stronger bet than $2. A full house or trips with strong kicker is likely to raise you back, in which case you can consider abandoning the hand. If you just get a call, then there's still the possibility that someone is slow-playing a made full house. And of course you don't know which club will pair someone's kicker to give them a full house.


[/ QUOTE ]

Accurate comments. I am pretty new myself (having lurked for several months).

I agree that my mistake was on the turn, but unless he went all in or made a substantial raise, I would have called and gone down the same way.

[tabish]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that my mistake was on the turn, but unless he went all in or made a substantial raise, I would have called and gone down the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]
But in this situation that is a big save for you. Since it turned out that both had a king, it's quite possible that you'd see heavy betting in response to a bigger turn bet from you. And then whether or not you call depends on the size of the bet to you... your implied odds are simple to calculate in this situation, since at best all three of you are all-in on the river if you nail your flush.

If both of them have kings, three of your flush cards are tainted, so the final pot would need to pay about 7.5:1 for you to want to call the turn. Factor in the possibility that just one (or neither) of them has a king or that you're drawing dead against a made full house, and that's where your decision to "concede or call on the river" should have been made.

[Triumph36]

I'm not sure this is correct, but I think the problem starts with the flop bet. By having 2 other people calling along in position, you have no idea where you're at. You could be up against AQ or a set or another flush draw. If you bet the flop harder, the BB might raise to find out where he is at, and you can play the hand a little more safely. The BB must figure you for a pair of kings in calling along, hoping to grab your stack on the turn and river.

I think this is the drawback to playing a drawing hand way out of position. You just have no idea what you're up against and when the board pairs, you can't know if you're against open trips or a full house.

I'd like to think I could have laid this down on the turn, and I certainly hope I would have on the river (two players all in), but I'm not sure I could have, because I could have thought BB had open trips and that UTG+1 just made a lower flush.

I'd suggest that if you can't make laydowns like that, don't play hands like this out of position. Against players who call minraises with hands like KT and K8, you're bound to be making +EV plays most of the time.