Betting two pair into a possible straight?

[poincaraux]

Party Poker $10+1 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

Hero (t1155)
UTG (t1040)
UTG+1 (t1025)
MP1 (t1570)
MP2 (t570)
CO (t830)
Button (t1065)
SB (t745)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t120) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t120, SB folds.

Turn: (t360) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t360</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises to t420 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t60.

River: (t1200) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1200

What do you think of my play here, especially the pot-sized bet with two pair?

[parappa]

I don't like the play on the flop. I don't think I'd bet middle pair out of position here. I can understand having a stab at it, I suppose, but I think that I check/fold the flop.

It's really difficult to interpret what his call on the flop means. I assume that if he had AT, he'd raise, so it's reasonable to assume that he could have JT or 9T. I guess he could even have overcards or a set; there's no way to know.

If I got myself into this mess, I'd probably go ahead and bet out on the turn, but I'm starting to experiment with half-pot bets and stuff here just to save chips, because I'm going to lay it down if my opponent puts in a big raise.

I really don't think there's much way out of this once you get into it. If you either had top 2 pair or position, you could play the hand with confidence. I've crippled my stack on these kinds of hands so many times that I simply check the flop here with my middle-pair/3-flush/3-straight conglomerate. If my opponent knows enough to put in a big bet, he'll take the pot. If he bets 15 or something, I'll draw.

Imo this spot is a big chip loser, and the board is so scary that you're not going to get paid off by a hand that can't beat middle 2-pair.

[thomastem]

I think your trouble starts with the flop bet. I check the flop. That changes the outlook on Turn. 2nd pair with crap kicker bet into 4 out of position is not a recipe for success imo.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]


It's really difficult to interpret what his call on the flop means. I assume that if he had AT, he'd raise, so it's reasonable to assume that he could have JT or 9T. I guess he could even have overcards or a set; there's no way to know.



[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this read. With one already in from MP I don't raise a-10 off, the button maybe. I don't think a typical player would and early in the tourney I assume typical to proven otherwise.

[parappa]

No, I mean that he might raise with TPTK on the flop.

[thomastem]

My bad I mis-read.

My goat apologizes for his mistake.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the play on the flop. I don't think I'd bet middle pair out of position here. I can understand having a stab at it, I suppose, but I think that I check/fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might be right here. I think that I'm not usually agressive enough, so I'm trying to take more stabs. I thought that my bet here would look pretty scary, and I expected that everyone would either fold or raise me. I was obviously planning to bail if I got raised.

[ QUOTE ]
It's really difficult to interpret what his call on the flop means. I assume that if he had AT, he'd raise, so it's reasonable to assume that he could have JT or 9T. I guess he could even have overcards or a set; there's no way to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, his call baffled me. I (obviously) chose interpret it as weakness.

[ QUOTE ]
If I got myself into this mess, I'd probably go ahead and bet out on the turn, but I'm starting to experiment with half-pot bets and stuff here just to save chips, because I'm going to lay it down if my opponent puts in a big raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably a good idea. I'll start playing around with 1/2-pot bets as well. I would think that his stack-size makes a smaller bet even better here; 1/2 the pot is a large chunk of his stack, and I'll be more comfortable folding if he re-raises .. I couldn't fold for 60.

[ QUOTE ]
Imo this spot is a big chip loser, and the board is so scary that you're not going to get paid off by a hand that can't beat middle 2-pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably good advice. Thanks.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, his call baffled me. I (obviously) chose interpret it as weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent way of putting it. I do this all the time, but I tend not to really be thinking at all when I do it, I'm just trying to be aggressive, in spite of the fact that a little voice in my head is whispering "what's he calling with?". When I hear that voice, if I'm bothered to respond at all, I usually say "shut up, I'm trying to play poker here."

So, probably more for me than for you, I had to emphasise this. . At 10+1, pre-flop limping and check-calling does not necessarily indicate weakness. I can't count the number of times I've either pushed from the blinds into pre-flop limpers or pushed on the turn to someone who check/called the flop. It never, ever works, and they always show me a monster and it's a huge leak in my game.

At 10+1, you have to (imo) get to the bubble before passivity means weakness (or aces).

[poincaraux]

In this case, it turns out that he had Jh Qd.