10-20 hand, giving too much credit?

holdem round of a loose-aggressive 10-20 rotation game. a good, tricky player - maybe best at the table - raises in MP. i three bet with QhQd in late position. bb calls, mp calls. three to the flop for 9.5 small bets. flop is 3c9dJc. BB checks, MP bets, I raise. BB folds, MP calls. turn is an offsuit rag. MP checkraises me.


so everything about his play is screaming pocket jacks. but now there are almost 10 BBs in pot and i can't stop thinking that this player might be semi-bluffing AQ or AK clubs. so i call. river is another offsuit rag and he bets out. i make a crying call and lose to the set of jacks. so here are my questions:


1) MP's flop play. Should this have clued me into the fact that he had the jacks? In retrospect a flush draw would want to checkraise me and keep the BB involved. Whereas the set of jacks want me to raise and make the BB call two cold to stay in and draw.


2) The turn. Does anybody muck if the opponent is completely unknown? What if the opponent is known and unimaginative? Is the MP's play - when I could have AKc and be buying a free card with my flop raise - correct? If you had never played me and were in his shoes with the jacks, would you have three bet the flop and bet out on the turn?


3) The river. When the flush card doesnt come and he bets out without hesitation, can i muck now?


Sorry for all the questions. But this hand struck me as a kind of common situation involving a variety of marginal decisions that I don't necessarily always think through correctly.

This is another example of a common situation where you get raised or check-raised on fourth and you are left playing with hardly any outs. Notice also that you have a similar predicament if he has pocket kings or aces. Nevertheless, I think you have to pay out here all the way to the river with your big overpair on the off-chance he is fooling around with a draw or something.


Your assessment of the flop action is probably correct. With a draw, he would probably not bet the flop into a preflop 3-bettor thereby driving the third player out of the hand.


Unless my opponent was an LOL (Little Old Lady) or a TOM (Tight Old Man), no way am I mucking this against anyone in a heads-up situation like this. Too much money involved. The middle player's play on the turn is correct given the hand he had. It is probably incorrect if he had just a flush draw with overcards. He is not going to get the bettor to fold in this spot.


You cannot muck at the river with all that money in the pot having an overpair in a heads-up situation. It is too easy for him to be fooling around on a busted draw.


Do not look for ways to muck in these situations.

"A good tricky player maybe the best at the table."


A good tricky player could raise with AJ from middle position. There is no way that you can muck that hand, there is to much money in the pot and I would have lost a little more than you did.


Good Luck