slow-playing the flopped set

[ErrantNight]

Flame away?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: ErrantNight is Button with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls, ErrantNight calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, ErrantNight calls, SB folds.

Happy flop... but on a rainbow crap flop this looks nice... but decide to wait until the turn to raise it... hoping that from my position they'll both call me on a reasonable size pot

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">ErrantNight bets</font>, BB calls, MP folds, CO calls.

where did the betting go? how is the 10 scary? new to the table... maybe he was betting overcards into a larger field but didn't thin it enough and figures someone might have caught a 10 and will either raise him or call him down? had a 9? what?

River: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">ErrantNight bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[meep_42]

I raise this flop... you have 2 people trapped, BB will hopefully only call, meaning you only need 1 of the trapped to call to make it a positive play, if you don't know SB's action at the time.

I'm guessing BB had a small pair or overcards (KJo) or a gutshot straight draw -- you got all you could out of the turn and river, it's fine.

-d

[digdeep]

Raise, Raise, Raise. I do not believe in slow playing a set, particularly at this level. People will play with any two cards, and easily make a straight to beat your set. You can't let them beat your set with trash.

Secondly, as was asserted by meep, your position justifies a raise on the flop, as you have trapped two players, which will earn you more money. Need to raise the flop; your bets on the turn and the river were correct.

[WillMagic]

Raise the flop....and go reread the slowplaying section in the Theory of Poker, because you need a refresher...

Will

[Sent]

I don't think the slow play was all that bad, the flop is very very good for him and there are no real draws out there and the pot is quite small, but a flop raise would've been nice since you had people trapped.

-Sent

[sfer]

While the flop lacks any likely draws the position of two players between the bet and the hero make the best flop play raising, I think. You just don't know what card will fall on the turn killing the bet into the field (like an Ace, for example) or if the bet was just a blind taking a one time stab at the pot.

Generally, take advantage of bad players tendency to call. Raise and let them call when you have the opportunity.

[MrHorace]

Would it make any sense to have raised pre-flop here, or would one not do this unless they had 8's or better in this late position? I guess a raise would've limited your players though, and with medium pairs I believe you want more players than not.

In regards to flopping set or nut flush or nut straight, I can tell you from experience to bet/raise as hard and fast as you can. I have tried the slow play approach a number of times myself, and have been burned each and every time. I've learned my lesson here!
I'm sure at some point I will become a refined enough player to alter this strategy, but it will be a while.

[Webster]

I'd raise - why slow play - normally people will call anyway and you are losing bets.

[sfer]

There's a decent argument for raising preflop, especially shorthanded. A lot of shorthanded has to do with the texture of the table and your ability to take down the pot with a single flop bet unimproved. With 99 I'd almost always raise. 88 usually. Beyond that, it's your judgement. I like raising with small pairs after a field of limpers on the button sometimes to buy a free turn card.

[ErrantNight]

I'm in much agreement... I suggested flaming for not raising the flop...

I lost here to a rivered straight

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a decent argument for raising preflop, especially shorthanded. A lot of shorthanded has to do with the texture of the table and your ability to take down the pot with a single flop bet unimproved. With 99 I'd almost always raise. 88 usually. Beyond that, it's your judgement. I like raising with small pairs after a field of limpers on the button sometimes to buy a free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Shorthanded it's a value raise. With 4 opponents in this situation, til now I'd woulda just called the 77.. If I dont flop a set there's too many overcards, and you're 22:1 per street against hitting your set postflop.. Passive thinking, I know (working on it)... However, now that you made me think about it:

If you were to not raise PF, to see the river would probably cost you 2 BB: 1/2bb pf, 1/2bb flop, 1bb turn.. If you start getting raised you can get out.

If you raise PF, get the flop checked to you, bet, get the turn checked to you, and take your free card, you pay 1.5 BB's. Of course if the turn hits, bet again.. It'll be impossible to put you on 7's then cuz you were so strong before the 7 showed. PLUS you the aggressor, so if you get raised (or bet into), you can know where you're at much easier.. Good plan!

[MrHorace]

Thanks. That was sort of my thought as well, but of course from a much less experienced position than yourself. It looked like a pretty limpy field so that's why I was curious about stretching the usually boundaries to 77. But as you say, it's definitely a judgement call.

[radek2166]

I learned my lesson. When BB bets out rasie it. You got the middle guys traped. Do they pay for 1 more card? Thats the big question.

[MrHorace]

Live &amp; learn as the expression goes! See my earlier post. This has happened to me on many occassions!
It would be interesting to run this through a simulation, or see how it might play out again in a different game.
Definitely you are kicking yourself for not raising the flop. Understood there.
But I wonder how things might've changed if you'd raised the preflop. Hmmm???? Of course as sfer stated, 77 and lower is probably a judgment call. I'm wondering what pocket pairs you would choose to cap the raising with if you were reraised. TT I think.
Thanks for a very interesting &amp; pertinent post.

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
I learned my lesson. When BB bets out rasie it. You got the middle guys traped. Do they pay for 1 more card? Thats the big question.

[/ QUOTE ]

They always pay for one more card. The only time I ever slowplay anything is if the bettor is the player immediately to my right, and raising would force everyone to call two cold. Then again, I'm not good.

[helpmeout]

1. Preflop raise is marginal, only good if you can get heads up I think 77 isnt that strong. I'd call unless in late position with no callers.

2. Gotta raise here, the flop isnt that friendly. BB could easily have T9 or 98, even T8s or 86s.