overused 2+2 cliches

[jdl22]

This seems to be the 2+2 forum forum so I'll post this here.

The following is a list, with usage, of cliches that I feel are used way too often on these forums. Feel free to add your own or bitch about mine. I'm sure people will try to be clever and use these in a response but I assure you that these responses will be even more lame than this post.

1. The sample size is too small

ex. 'I have 250,000,000 hands imported into poker tracker and it shows that I am a winning player at .5/.10, should I move up if I've got the roll?' 'your sample size is way to small, you could just be on a lucky run for a couple hundred million hands, wait until you are a winning player after a billion or so then try moving up'

People say this all the time but you rarely if ever see an actual discussion of the statistics involved to come to the conclusion that you never have enough hands to determine anything.

2. Do you see why?

ex. 'what is your favorite movie rating?' 'XXX, do you see why?'

yeah we get it you read poker books. Clever.

Similarly:
3. and it's not close

ex. 'what is your favorite movie rating?' 'XXX and it's not close.'

yeah we get it you read poker books. Clever.

Anything I missed?

[nothumb]

How about: Best. Thread. Ever.

NT

[MicroBob]

I use the sample-size bit a lot. Only because I see a lot of posts by frustrated players who can't understand why they are only break-even after 700-1100 hands or something ridiculous.


For crying out loud, I (and many other players) play that many hands (or more) in a single day. So, while it is a frequently used phrased, I'm not sure it is actually OVER-used. There are clearly a lot of players (anyone who would wonder about their break-even status after 1k hands) that REALLY need to hear it.....and it's not even close!!!

[radar5]

post of the day

[Josh W]

Way ahead or way behind.

My hand is good.

Hand to talk about.

Q6o utg by mike l. (kidding...kinda /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

2+2er you ______ most.

ole'. (I sense repercussions, but I hear he's coming to Commerce soon, so I'll live with 'em).

These are easily the biggest cliche's on 2+2. I'll leave it to others to elaborate.

Josh

[BlueBear]

Examples would be, you don't have the odds to call there.
The pot/implied odds are to low.

anything with odds.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

ole'. (I sense repercussions, but I hear he's coming to Commerce soon, so I'll live with 'em).

[/ QUOTE ]

Trouble. Brewing. Now.

Do you see why?

You are the 2+2er most soon to be in a world of hurt. And it's not close.

¡Olé!

[ThePopinjay]

We get it, you read poker books.

[AJo Go All In]

"fold preflop"

[moondogg]

"LOL. Dude, you owe me a new keyboard, I just spit prune juice all over it!"

[nicky g]

"I play goot"

[zuluking]

"No reads"

It amazes me how many online players have "no reads" when they post a hand.

[scotnt73]

i like when people say stuff like:

i was drunk and utg with 72o and raised. then bla bla bla...

now tell me how my river call was but dont dare mention all the crap i did wrong leading up too it.

[James Boston]

gamboooool

[Tharpab]

Could I have milked more?

[colgin]

"raise or fold"

"... but since you didn't. . ."

[SpiderMnkE]

"SpiderMnkE Rulz!"

Way overused

[ohgeetee]

I think the replacement of "you're a complete retard" with "that's fuzzy thinking" is pretty awesome.

It's like having someone call you a poopyhead, then you trying to rationalize why you are indeed not a poopyhead. Theres no reply.

[eMarkM]

C'mon, you're missing the biggest one of all....

"it depends"

[Nottom]

bet the river

... nah, thats can't be overused.

[Steven Punk]

"Excuse me. Do you wanna see my junk?"

[Tosh]

"check to induce a bluff..." (because I'm too chicken to bet)

"what do I do if he raises me?"

"Unbelievable."

[M2d]

agree wholeheartedly...do you see why?

[Big Mo]

I always hear "Back that thang up."

[nef]

the one i hate the most:

"raise to find out where I'm at"

[oddjob]

the one that annoys me the most is:

"i'll let others explain"

[Heywood Jablome]

I hate, "You can't take over any more countries this year."

[nolanfan34]

I can't believe no one has mentioned:

"This is not a bad beat story..."

Which of course is followed by a bad beat story.

[Punker]

"I have proof that online poker is rigged"

"I win XX big bets per hour"

"Come sweat me"

I have been guilty of using several of these before.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
the one i hate the most:

"raise to find out where I'm at"

[/ QUOTE ]

New posters in Micro and Small Stakes are quickly corrected when they write this.

[theBruiser500]

"and if he has it, well, good for him"

[dogmeat]

So, I read your post - WTF?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[The Ocho]

"My table image is tight and aggressive"

Sorry, but no it isn't.

[uuDevil]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
So, while it is a frequently used phrased, I'm not sure it is actually OVER-used.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may not be OVERused, but it is often MISused. A simple "your sample size is too small" is overly dismissive. How about an estimate for an adequate sample size? How about a rationale for that estimate? (This would be a nice FAQ item.)

For an alternative view of sample size, try this simple quiz (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=633663&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) .

[thirddan]

I have a question, but i only want Ed, Clark, Dynasty or JoeTall to answer...

[WEASEL45]

did youre girlfriend get her liscence yet

[Thythe]

[ QUOTE ]
"My table image is tight and aggressive"

Sorry, but no it isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, exactly

[BottlesOf]

Yeah, I really don't like any of them.

1 Needs to be said to many people for situations most people don't even realize. Even people who know you need to have a "large" sample size, don't realize how large is large.

2 &amp; 3: I like useing these in non-poker situations, I think it's funny, so /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Zele]

I disagree with 1) being a cliche, as it's true 95% of the time (with a SE of 2%, I've quantified this, trust me) when someone asks this kind of question.

On another note, I freaking hate the spelling "s00ted".

[bernie]

That 'depends' on how the cliche is used. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

b

[durron597]

"Does the brown trout sleep in the closet?"

[Joe Tall]

Threads about 2+2 $hit.

[Roy Hobbs]

"What do you think of this line?"

[Ian J]

[ QUOTE ]

My hand is good.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was just MHIG /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The problem with "sample size is too small" is usually that their sample size is not just a little too small, it's WAY too small. I have used this phrase before many times, and when I say it, their sample size is simply TOO SMALL, AND IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE. 100,000,000,000,000 hands is plenty enough of a sample size. The problem is usually that some morons says they are winning 5 or 6 bb/hour, and they have 1200 total hands played. The fact they make such claims at all means the phrase is appropriately used and correct when you say their sample size is too small.

"Do you see why?" bugs the hell out of me too. Either friggin explain it already or shut the hell up already. Saying "do you see why?" seems more like a question "can you please explain it to me? ... because I am supposing it to be true but haven't actually come up with any real evidence myself."

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

It depends...

same as...

Well I will find some obscure circumstance where I can argue this point my way and be right. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]


"Do you see why?" bugs the hell out of me too. Either friggin explain it already or shut the hell up already. Saying "do you see why?" seems more like a question "can you please explain it to me? ... because I am supposing it to be true but haven't actually come up with any real evidence myself."

al

[/ QUOTE ]

I already weighed in on this yesterday: I just couldn't contain myself.


Rant (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=inet&amp;Number=958744&amp;Forum=, All_Forums,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=9581 63&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&amp;Name=470&amp;daterange=&amp;newerval =&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post95 8744)

[AJo Go All In]

"so i'm about to &lt;go drinking, go party, something else really really cool&gt;, so i'll keep this post short"

[Zele]

I submit that the idea of "It depends..." being a cliche is itself a meta-cliche.

[mike l.]

that's my pick

[Losing all]

nice. That's kinda like, "I might come off as a nerdy fruit, but in reality I'm very cool, and quite the ladies man".

[Punker]

A few others..

"Im thinking of quitting my job"

"Sign up at this site and get a bonus"

"Comments?"

[moondogg]

Bumping a month-old thread just to say "lol"

[codewarrior]

"Here's the thing"

&amp; also "doughnut puncher /images/graemlins/tongue.gif"

[BreakEvenPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been a winning B&amp;M player for more than 32 years, but

[/ QUOTE ]

Which inevitably evolves into:

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen more set over set and crazy flops and AA and KK in one week than I did all last year...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which inevitably evolves into:

[ QUOTE ]
Online poker must be rigged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which inevitably get's flamed into smithereen's by 2+2'ers who basically say:

[ QUOTE ]
Prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which inevitably provokes the idiot to reply:

[ QUOTE ]
No. Why don't you prove that it's not rigged.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inevitably the thread will wither and die and we will wait a couple months for the next brave, ignorant soul to step forth.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Great Rant! And I DO see why!

al

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

and it isn't even close. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mike Gallo]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Charon]

"HPFAP says....." blablehbluh

[34TheTruth34]

the thing I hate the most is when people end posts by typing "meh" or the even more annoying "meh?"


here's a story for the person who said "and it's not close":

I was at work talking to my boss and my boss' boss (i.e., two people that can basically fire me for no reason whatsoever) and one of those "would-you-do-such-and-such-for-a-million-dollars"-type discussions broke out. They asked me if I would do something disguisting (don't remember exactly what it was) and I quickly replied "yes, and it's not even close" and they just looked at me like "is this kid retarded?"

[Kevmath]

How event X will bring in the fish

Kevin...

[ArchAngel71857]

You are the 2+2er most soon to be in a world of hurt. And it's not close.

Can you smell what El Diablo is cooking?

-AA

[Bob Moss]

Don't forget "shut the hell up, Daryn."

Bob

[daryn]

misplayed on every street.

[codewarrior]

Shut the hell up, Daryn.

[Duke]

This NOT directed at the original poster, but are just things that I figure need to be said more often.

1. You're an idiot.
2. You're an idiot.

I figured there would be more, but I guess that sums it up quite nicely.

~D

[DrSavage]

"How do I explain to my parents that playing poker is the only thing i'm planning to do through my entire life?"

[jagoff]

"that's like getting caught fisting your dog while your second cousin is bobbing your knob in the back of pappy's pick up truck"

Well it should be over used...

[onegymrat]

[ QUOTE ]
Examples would be, you don't have the odds to call there.
The pot/implied odds are to low.

anything with odds.



[/ QUOTE ] Not a cliche, a fact.

[Bubbagump]

Wow! I've read every post in this thread and I can't believe anybody has mentioned the (inhale) "The sky is falling, because all the fish are going broke faster than they can be lured into the online poker rooms by having WSOP and WPT tournaments endlessly rebroadcast." posts. (exhale)

Bubbagump

Bubbagump

[dana33]

"Fear not the flush."

"You're seeing monsters under the bed."

"If that's what you think, come sit down at my table any time!" (more an RGP than a 2+2 cliche, I think)

[BarronVangorToth]

My favorite cliche from not only this board, but from poker rooms as well:


SOOTED


2nd Place (and it's not even close) goes to: "I had pot odds," especially when the person saying it didn't have pot odds (and it wasn't even close).


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[onegymrat]

Hi Dana,

[ QUOTE ]
You're seeing monsters under the bed

[/ QUOTE ]
You are sooo right! I hate this statement. Mainly because in hold'em, there are plenty of monsters to worry about.

[DrSavage]

[ QUOTE ]

You are sooo right! I hate this statement. Mainly because in hold'em, there are plenty of monsters to worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an evil monkey in my closet. What's funny, it hasn't always been evil ...

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
"I had pot odds," especially when the person saying it didn't have pot odds (and it wasn't even close).

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a guy offer that as the reason that he went off for a cap with AQ on a 754 flop vs my 44, and then raised the turn. Yeah, he won the hand or else I wouldn't remember it. No, he could not possibly have had pot odds.

~D

[astroglide]

with a flush?

[jdl22]

My money's on 2,3. At least that would make the story better.

[Duke]

No, there was never a flush possible. Straight. Sorry for not clarifying.

~D

[bisonbison]

"Fear not the flush."

As the person responsible for "Fear not the flush.", I'll say that the place it's most often posted, micro, is the place where it's most often needed.

"You're seeing monsters under the bed."

See above.

[balt999]

Here's one:

For those who love to feed their ego..
"I'm Playing (Fill in tournament here) come and cheer me on."

[1800GAMBLER]

LGPG.

[Eder]

So this LAG in EP blah blah ....
so I called because blah blah...
Anyone get away from this blah blah...

[Boopotts]

I'm going to go with 'EP player raises, it's folded to me on the button. EP is tight-predictable, so I three bet with 9xs, figuring I can outplay him on later streets.'

[jdl22]

Am I the only one that reads that and thinks that it should be LGPW?

[Sponger15SB]

"X is definantly +EV"

[Sponger15SB]

also one that is used a lot but I kinda like:

"Call and be mad"

[B Dids]

A lot of posts in this thread seem to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "cliche".

[dana33]

[ QUOTE ]
"Fear not the flush."

As the person responsible for "Fear not the flush.", I'll say that the place it's most often posted, micro, is the place where it's most often needed.

"You're seeing monsters under the bed."

See above.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bison,

The reason many cliches become cliches is that they were good original ideas when first used. And, indeed, both of the above phrases have been helpful to me in my play. So besides thanking you for the hand converter, I guess I need to thank you for these. I apologize if you took any offense that I included them in a thread on "overused cliches," as opposed, I guess, to "frequently used, but still helpful cliches."

Cheers,
Dana

[BeerMoney]

That's an ad hominem attack.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumping a month-old thread just to say "lol"

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[cowboyzfan]

"Ed Miller made me do this"

[Sarge85]

"I'm closing my account at Empire"

"Empire are a bunch of (incert expletive here)"

Not really cliche's I suppose - but already highly overused.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[AncientPC]

On a slight tangent, "If it weren't for SSH I wouldn't be calling 83s from SB &lt;or something else stupid&gt;."

[sthief09]

"it depends"


and the dumbest cliche is: "I'd raise there about x% of the time" where x is a completely arbitrary number that's basically saying "I'm x% sure you should raise, but I'm scared I'll be wrong"

[Wahoo91]

The sample size is too small

Oh I don't like this one the most. There are so many posts about 10,000+ hands being too small a sample size. This just can not be true, regardless of how many hands people "play a day".

As a point of reference, one of the most publicized polls post-debate was ABC which polled less than 550 people (yes less than five hundred and fifty, not thousands or tens of thousands, etc.) to guage the sentiments of 200m+ people.

It seems to me that a couple of people here started this bandwagon, and a lot of people who really do not know either way jumped on board and repeat it everywhere (they think) it is even remotely applicable.

It is so bad that no matter how big the sample size, everyone feels compulsed to say something like " I know this is ONLY over 15,000 hands, but....&lt;add trend&gt;".

[astroglide]

a poll is a black or white question. a given hand in poker takes tons of iterations to approach a level ev. swings/plateaus can easily last for 10k hands. you are wrong.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
The sample size is too small

Oh I don't like this one the most. There are so many posts about 10,000+ hands being too small a sample size. This just can not be true, regardless of how many hands people "play a day".

As a point of reference, one of the most publicized polls post-debate was ABC which polled less than 550 people (yes less than five hundred and fifty, not thousands or tens of thousands, etc.) to guage the sentiments of 200m+ people.

It seems to me that a couple of people here started this bandwagon, and a lot of people who really do not know either way jumped on board and repeat it everywhere (they think) it is even remotely applicable.

It is so bad that no matter how big the sample size, everyone feels compulsed to say something like " I know this is ONLY over 15,000 hands, but....&lt;add trend&gt;".

[/ QUOTE ]

I must be God's gift to poker then:

http://www.mtmtechnologies.net/sept04.JPG

And just to be fair and not come off as a swinging dick:
http://www.mtmtechnologies.net/runbad.JPG


The point of my images is that there's a reason why people say you need 100,000-200,000 hands for an accurate data size. I'm the same player, how do I run so good in one 17,000 hand stretch and run so bad in another 13,000 hand stretch?

[Wahoo91]

I suppose you both are right.

It just seems counter intuitive that 10k , 20k or 50k hands are not enough to determine &lt;insert poker question here&gt; when very, very, small sample sizes are used to determine very important issues, including ones that are even more complicated than poker (e.g. medical and drug tests on human beings).

[ArchAngel71857]

I'm the same player, how do I run so good in one 17,000 hand stretch and run so bad in another 13,000 hand stretch?

Duh, because 15/30 is soooooooooooooooooooooo much harder than 10/20 shorthanded. You must be underbankrolled. Rookie.
<font color="white"> SARCASM! </font>

-AA

[magithighs]

After my analysis of every single permutation,

1) I'd raise there, or
2) I'd re-raise that, or
3) I'd cap that

Cheers
Magi

[juanez]

I'm starting to get sick of: "Read SSH"

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm the same player, how do I run so good in one 17,000 hand stretch and run so bad in another 13,000 hand stretch?

Duh, because 15/30 is soooooooooooooooooooooo much harder than 10/20 shorthanded. You must be underbankrolled. Rookie.
<font color="white"> SARCASM! </font>

-AA

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm... Zing??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Don't make me steal your pride just like how I stole that 15/30 fish Bicyclekick's pride in a HU match.
<font color="white"> SARCASM! </font>

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems counter intuitive that 10k , 20k or 50k hands are not enough to determine &lt;insert poker question here&gt; when very, very, small sample sizes are used to determine very important issues, including ones that are even more complicated than poker (e.g. medical and drug tests on human beings).

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately this is crazytalk.
Even if we assumed that the same definition of the word 'sample' properly applied to both statistics and biological matter, then the 'sample size' of a blood test would indeed be enormous.
Tests quantify the amount or concentration of tiny molecules in a quantitity of blood that is gigantic in comparison.

For example, after fasting, in one deciliter (10th of a Liter, 100 ml) of normal blood, ~70-110mg of glucose would be found.

That's at least 2.34 x 10^20 glucose molecules.
that's 2 340 000 000 000 000 000 000 molecules.

[ArchAngel71857]

I have text in white font.


-AA

[Wahoo91]

I was thinking more along the lines of human clinical trials of new drugs where human participants are the "sample", not blood itself.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I have text in white font.


[/ QUOTE ]

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
how do I run so good in one 17,000 hand stretch and run so bad in another 13,000 hand stretch?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to focus on winning more at the showdown at 15/30. You only won slightly over 50% at 15/20 compared to over 55% at 10/20. This should be your focal point of your game. Do you see why?

[ArchAngel71857]

I can't even tell if you replied to me, or if you think using white text is overused. I am so easily confused.

-AA

[ThinkQuick]

Indeed then, thank you for clarifying, I thought you were crazy.

still disagree though. hundreds of millions of dollars on enough patients to determine the minimum effective doses and relevant toxicities