View Full Version : One man's reason why America dominates the Olympics...
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 02:07 AM
USA Dominating at the Olympics
Wednesday, August 25, 2004
By Bill O'Reilly
The USA dominating at the Olympics, but why?
By airtime this evening, the USA (search) had won 71 Olympic medals, followed by China (search) with 51, and Russia (search) with 48. America is dominating the games. And I think I know the reason why.
Increasingly, the USA is becoming a nation of achievers and non-achievers. Those who are motivated and disciplined can succeed in a huge way.
We are the most powerful nation in the history of the world. And individual Americans are the reason why. Unlike China, which has five times as many people as America, all our Olympic training is privately funded. Our athletes are subjected to intense competition from a very young age, but that competition is voluntary. Nobody here is forced to do anything.
Totalitarian regimes are able to motivate athletes as we saw in the old Soviet Union. As long as you perform well, you live well. Fail, and it's back to the harsh life.
But here in the USA, our athletes have to motivate themselves. And that's why this country has been successful. Many Americans will suffer the pain of hard work to achieve their potential. And hard work always wins.
In other countries, the emphasis on self-reliance has been beaten down by nanny states and entitlement cultures. Just take a look at Australia and Canada, for example. The Aussies have 20 million people to draw from. Canada has 30 million. Yet the Aussies have 35 Olympic medals, Canada just five.
"Talking Points" believes this is reflective of the systems in those countries. Australia is a place where self-reliance is emphasized and competition is celebrated. Canada has become increasingly socialistic, as big government programs ensure everyone is marginally taken care of. I may be wrong here, but I see the entitlement culture as a force against self-discipline and motivation.
Americans should be very proud of our Olympic people, and we largely are. Politicians could learn a lot from the competitive forces that have resulted in our success. We are a great nation because individual Americans have worked insanely hard to develop their God-given abilities. I'm one of them, and you probably are as well.
Together, we the people have demonstrated to the world that freedom and achievement are a matched set. The USA dominates in technology, science, higher education, the arts, and in protecting the oppressed of the world. We are a strong country because of individual achievement.
We need to keep emphasizing personal responsibility and discipline. If we do, we'll get even stronger. If we don't, the specter of a decadent Western Europe beckons. Congratulations to our Olympic athletes. And that's the memo.
__________________________________________________ ___________________
LOL, we run things!!! The only land of the free and the physically dominate. I now await the response from wussy liberals and commie europeans. Flame on bitches!!!!!
Boris
08-26-2004, 02:27 AM
O'Reilly is a jackass. case closed.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 02:32 AM
interesting.... so you did or didn't read his opinion, or are you just not going to comment on what he said? I suppose it is easier to just say he is a jackas.
[ QUOTE ]
Canada has become increasingly socialistic, as big government programs ensure everyone is marginally taken care of.
[/ QUOTE ]
So because we have subsized health care we suck at rowing?
<begin broad sweeping generalization>
It has nothing to do with social programs. The US culture breeds a society of individuals who have to win at all costs. This look-at-me attitude results in a much larger payoff for these athletes if they suceed. In Canada, if you win a gold, you are not going to be paid a zillion dollars to be on a cereal box.
Im not saying its good or bad, just that we dont celebrate the individual.
Tuco.
Cyrus
08-26-2004, 02:49 AM
What else could we expect from ignoramuses like Bill O'Reilly? (sigh)
The reasons behind the dominance of the American athletes are much more straightforward than Bill thinks (last word show how polite I can be).
To wit :
-- The excellent and widespread college system and its emphasis on PE, along with the same emphasis on PE inn the high school level. This is the main engine behind the production, year after year, of top rate athletes in American sports.
-- The availability of sports training centers, trainers and training systems. Even a kid that doesn't go to college but is interested in hitting a ball with a bat or running faster than the neighborhood cop can make something out of it.
-- The numbers. The United States is a big country, if you didn not already know it, population-wise. This means that whatever it does well, it does it in a big way too. (Example: The US sucks at men's soccer, internationally. If it ever comes to the US truly getting into it, there's just no way it will not become a soccer powerhouse, internationally.)
-- Strongest possible support for top athletes. And I'm not referring only to the doping aspect, which is routine for all top athletes everywhere. (Immortal line by the Greek coach caught dealing: "Only the athlete who is caught being doped is doped"! Is that Yogi Berra or what?!) I'm referring to the whole support grid available in the US, of trainers, doctors, nutriotinists and what-have-you scientists that will improve further the performance of the cream of the crop. This too is the result of top talent available outta the academic American community.
Motivation and spirit of competition are the mark of all athletes everywhere, don't kid yourselves, whether they are from Mongolia or Des Moines. As to rewards, the old Soviet system was rewarding its top stars much better compared to the rest of its citizens than the West ever did.
The wrench that boggles downthe idiotic thinking exemplified by Bill O'Reilly's is Cuba. Here's a nation of a measly few million people, poor as poor can be, with athletes that are more closely monitored by WADA than anybody else, and yet they come up with an impressive array of medals every Olympics. (Can you spell Teophilo Stevenson?) In terms of percentages, they kick the United States' ass to the Alpha Centauri!
How come, Bill? /images/graemlins/cool.gif What's up with them Cubans? Is it the sugar? Is it the cigars? They say women workers in the cigar factories rub among their sweaty legs, high up, the choice tobacco. Maybe that's got something to do with it. Sweet dreams, Bill.
busguy
08-26-2004, 03:16 AM
He could have pointed out that you are a jackass as well
/images/graemlins/grin.gif busguy
[ QUOTE ]
In other countries, the emphasis on self-reliance has been beaten down by nanny states and entitlement cultures. Just take a look at Australia and Canada, for example. The Aussies have 20 million people to draw from. Canada has 30 million. Yet the Aussies have 35 Olympic medals, Canada just five.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before we universally declare Canada's crappiness at the olympics, consider this: Canada is f***ing cold! We have snow for almost half the year, making training for many summer sports at the same level as Australia impossible. Now consider the olympic winter games, where Canada truly shines. Since we're always covered in snow, that's where our focus lies, it's simply a product of our environment. If you take the medal totals from the Salt Lake City olympics, the Americans had 34 medals and the Canadians 17. Doesn't take a math wiz to figure out that the US, with almost ten times the population of Canada didn't get ten times the medals. If you add together those totals with total medals from Sydney you get USA 131, Canada 31. So again, with almost ten times the population, the USA pulls out only slightly more than four times the medals.
I guess it's easy to dominate in sports when you have one of the most poplulous nations on earth. That said, I wouldn't take anything away from the Americans' olympic performances, as they have been impressive. Just think twice before you knock Canada's sports programs.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 11:04 AM
he can do that if he wants, its intelligent and constructive,
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 11:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
-- The excellent and widespread college system and its emphasis on PE, along with the same emphasis on PE inn the high school level. This is the main engine behind the production, year after year, of top rate athletes in American sports.
[/ QUOTE ] Yeah but that really only apllies to a few sports, ie the one that make them the most money. The US argueably produces the best team sport athletes(soccer is only a matter of time), but what about sports like swimming, track, wrestling? College's aren't really supporting sports like these, and high school really only progresses them so far.
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The availability of sports training centers, trainers and training systems
[/ QUOTE ] I agree, but Bill's point about this is that most of our training here in America is privately funded.
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The numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the numbers are quite as big a factor as you think. Sholdn't countries like India and China then dominate the Olympics?
Cyrus, this was a great post.....but .....
[ QUOTE ]
Can you spell Teophilo Stevenson
[/ QUOTE ]
....I could not resist....Teofilo.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 11:13 AM
forgot to add this to my other post.
Cuban athletes are incredibly motivated. They know if they do well at the Olympics, then it is possible that they can stay away from Cuba and actually make some real money. Don't discount that.
MaxPower
08-26-2004, 11:30 AM
What is this self-reliance stuff? No one gets to the Olympic games totally on their own efforts. They could not acheive without the assitance of many people including coaches, doctors, families, sponsors, etc.
There are so many differnces between the cultures of various countries that it ridiculous to explain the medal counts in this way. O'Reilly hand picks a few countries that prove his point.
Then again maybe O'Reilly is right. Hmm. We are so superior to all you suckers out there. Losers! I hope you enjoy your bronze medals /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
tolbiny
08-26-2004, 11:56 AM
We are the most powerful nation in the history of the world. And individual Americans are the reason why
Statements like this are what make Bill a jackass. Does he really think that americans are "better" than other people in other countries? The US becoming a world power was mostly due to WW1 and WW2, where its vast natural resouces built up a huge amount of wealth, and its isolation protected its infrastructure during these wars.
Our athletes are subjected to intense competition from a very young age, but that competition is voluntary. Nobody here is forced to do anything
There are dozens of stories about professional athletes who have problems in their adult life because they were pused by parents/coaches as kids. Just because the government isnt the one pushing doesn't mean its voluntary.
We need to keep emphasizing personal responsibility and discipline. If we do, we'll get even stronger. If we don't, the specter of a decadent Western Europe beckons
Apparently the EU is failing completely and the Eruo is far behind the dollar?
And hard work always wins.
Every Wal Mart that pops up is due to hard work now, and every small store that goes out of business was due to sloth and lack of effort?
In other countries, the emphasis on self-reliance has been beaten down by nanny states and entitlement cultures. Just take a look at Australia and Canada, for example. The Aussies have 20 million people to draw from. Canada has 30 million. Yet the Aussies have 35 Olympic medals, Canada just five.
By this logic Australia should be a world power since it focuses on self reliance.
The USA dominates in technology, science, higher education, the arts, and in protecting the oppressed of the world
Japanese technology is vastly influential in our culture- protecting the oppressed world is a joke, and if you so far you believe that we went into Iraq for any such reason, but are ignoreing worse situations in several african countries, nothing here is going to convince you otherwise.
Take per capita GDP, population size, total medals (weighted by color if you're into that), regress. Looks like a clean model to me.
MaxPower
08-26-2004, 12:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Take per capita GDP, population size, total medals (weighted by color if you're into that), regress. Looks like a clean model to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Send me the data and I'll do it in SPSS. You need to get O'Reilly to rate each country for "self-reliance"
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 12:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What is this self-reliance stuff? No one gets to the Olympic games totally on their own efforts.
[/ QUOTE ] no kidding, but don't fool yourself, 90% of the reason they are there is because of the immense hard work they themselves have put in.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 12:49 PM
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Does he really think that americans are "better" than other people in other countries?
[/ QUOTE ] No, I believe he thinks Americans work harder than many people in other countries.
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The US becoming a world power was mostly due to WW1 and WW2, where its vast natural resouces built up a huge amount of wealth, and its isolation protected its infrastructure during these wars.
[/ QUOTE ] OH, so why then did Germany and Japan become such great economic powers? Do a little research on economic growth and the causes of it.
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There are dozens of stories about professional athletes who have problems in their adult life because they were pused by parents/coaches as kids. Just because the government isnt the one pushing doesn't mean its voluntary.
[/ QUOTE ] There is a big difference between coming home to an unhappy parent and an unhappy dictator.
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And hard work always wins.
[/ QUOTE ] This is undeniably true.
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protecting the oppressed world is a joke, and if you so far you believe that we went into Iraq for any such reason, but are ignoreing worse situations in several african countries, nothing here is going to convince you otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ] I agree with you.
[ QUOTE ]
Japanese technology is vastly influential in our culture
[/ QUOTE ] and our technology is vastly influential on there culture. I think it goes both ways in regards to Japan-U.S.
tolbiny
08-26-2004, 02:03 PM
No, I believe he thinks Americans work harder than many people in other countries.
Do you believe this? Is the sole reason that ethiopia is poor that fact that they wont get off thier asses and work?
Yes americans had to work hard/develope industry/try new ideas to supple europe with materials for the world wars, But it was the location of the country coupled with the vast natural resouces that were available along with its size which gave it room to grow- which presente the opportunities to build a vast economic base which has since been utilized to fund research and foster more economic growth.
After world war 2 japan was able to poor large amounts of money into their economy that in previous years had been earmarked for the military because they were no longer allowed to kkpe a standing army (yes i know that they were allowed a civil defense force, but it didnt recieve the capital that their old army used to). Germany after WW2 was split in two and western germany was on the outside of the "iron curtain" which encouraged countries who were afraid of communism to invest capital in the economy to help rebuild it (conversely the refusal to help rebuild germany after ww1 and the stripping of valuable lands was a major cause of the german economoic depression which lead to the rise of the Nazi party whcih led to WW2).
Both of these countries had opportunities which helped to make them economic powers, it wasnt simple the hard work of the people (though that is a factor). Hard work without opportunity is sweat shop labor in Korea making cheap tennis shoes for other markets. Or farmers scrathing out livings on dry land without the capital to invest in irrigation systems or for developing new techniques. The US had a great opportunity and they took it, there is nothing wrong with this, but to make statements that this country is great just because of the hard work of individuals is an insult to people who have to work and fight for every penny just to survive. It fosters an eletist mentality without recognizing all the factors that got us to this point and ignors how easy it is to fall of the top rung of the ladder.
There is a big difference between coming home to an unhappy parent and an unhappy dictator.
But dont try to tell me that everyone on the us olympic team is there totally voluntarily. We may be better than the alternative but Bill's statements reek of a perfectionism in our country that isnt there.
And hard work always wins.
This is undeniably true.
This is not undeniable true. All things being equal hard work will win out, in fact hard work will win out over small inequities and larger ones. But a person with opportunities has to do very little work to succeed when compared to a person who has few opportunities. Besides taht trickery, a loose moral code and good looks often get you as far (financially) as hard work does in this country.
and our technology is vastly influential on there culture. I think it goes both ways in regards to Japan-U.S.
Absolutely, but bill statement that the US is unarguable that world leader in technology, the arts, higher education and protecting the oppressed world is to easy for people to accept without thinking about how japanese cars run more efficiently and longer. Bill's attitude of "ive said it, accept it as fact" is one of the few things i dislike about this country. Not just the fact that he says it, the fact that people listen.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 02:49 PM
Americans work more per year than most people in other first-world countries, so yeah I do think Americans work pretty damn hard, and part of their success can be directly attributed to their hard work.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes americans had to work hard/develope industry/try new ideas to supple europe with materials for the world wars, But it was the location of the country coupled with the vast natural resouces that were available along with its size which gave it room to grow- which presente the opportunities to build a vast economic base which has since been utilized to fund research and foster more economic growth.
[/ QUOTE ] Before WWII America was grosely underperforming. We had enourmous unemployment and high inflation. WWII allowed many in America to get jobs, as well as spark our industrial sector. After the war, the key to American success was stability and peace, but also a growing international market and domestic market. Market size presents probably the best oppurtunity for economic growth, and America had that, as well as Japan and Germany following WWII.
[ QUOTE ]
The US had a great opportunity and they took it, there is nothing wrong with this, but to make statements that this country is great just because of the hard work of individuals is an insult to people who have to work and fight for every penny just to survive.
[/ QUOTE ] There are millions of Americans busting their ass every day for every penny they earn. You may assume all Americans are fat lazy bastards, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. My dad still works 10-12 hour days, almost every day and he is 58. Americans work hard man, they always have and they always will.
I agree there are many things which lead to success, things like luck, skill, determination, heart, and hard work. I think hard work is the one that gets you the farthest is hard work.
[ QUOTE ]
But dont try to tell me that everyone on the us olympic team is there totally voluntarily. We may be better than the alternative but Bill's statements reek of a perfectionism in our country that isnt there.
[/ QUOTE ] what? No one is forced to be on the Olympic team in the US. Your statement is completely absurd.
[ QUOTE ]
But a person with opportunities has to do very little work to succeed when compared to a person who has few opportunities. Besides taht trickery, a loose moral code and good looks often get you as far (financially) as hard work does in this country.
[/ QUOTE ] Well of course, and thats unfair, but people need to deal with it, quit feeling sorry for themselves, and get out and kick some ass!
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely, but bill statement that the US is unarguable that world leader in technology, the arts, higher education and protecting the oppressed world
[/ QUOTE ] I think his statement was a tad absurd as well, but I sort of thought it was irrelavent to the rest of his essay.
Garbonzo
08-26-2004, 03:06 PM
Any discussion of American dominance in sports AND olympics needs to include the following word:
"Slavery"
End of story. The black olympic athletes that O'Reilly cheers on, are probably the only black people he is not afraid of...and Colin Powell.....
Hallett
08-26-2004, 03:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In other countries, the emphasis on self-reliance has been beaten down by nanny states and entitlement cultures. Just take a look at Australia and Canada, for example. The Aussies have 20 million people to draw from. Canada has 30 million. Yet the Aussies have 35 Olympic medals, Canada just five.
[/ QUOTE ]
Last time I checked, Canada has 7 medals, USA has 76. The population of the US is approx. 300 million. Canada is approx. 30 million. Simple math tells us that the USA is about 10 times bigger than Canada.
And guess what? 7 medals times 10 is 70. Pretty close to 76.
I don't think your comparison is relevant. Take a look at winter olympics, and see where Canada stands vs. Australia. Would this be a fair comparison? I don't think so.
tolbiny
08-26-2004, 03:14 PM
Take it easy SaltCracka-
I never once stated that i though americans are "fat lazy bastards". What i said was that without opportunity people busting their asses in america would be just like people busting their asses in other countries.
My dad still works 10-12 hour days, almost every day and he is 58.
I hope nothing i said led you to conclude that i didn't have any respect for american work ethic, i take issue with Bill's spin on the world because he ignores other Major factors which have contributed to the situation. Statements like his are a knock against all non middle/upperclass americans- as well as people in other countries. It implies that if the lower class would just get off its ass and work they could enjoy the lifestyle in they way that he does.
so yeah I do think Americans work pretty damn hard, and part of their success can be directly attributed to their hard work.
I did state that effort is a factor in succeding- its isn't the only one.
I agree there are many things which lead to success, things like luck, skill, determination, heart, and hard work. I think hard work is the one that gets you the farthest is hard work.
See we keep agreeing on certain points, just like in the other homophoe thread.
But dont try to tell me that everyone on the us olympic team is there totally voluntarily. We may be better than the alternative but Bill's statements reek of a perfectionism in our country that isnt there.
what? No one is forced to be on the Olympic team in the US. Your statement is completely absurd.
Statements like Bill's are absurd- almost no one wakes up at 5 yrs old, says to themselves "i want to be an olympian" and then pushes their way through by themselves. Others have to be there to support and push them. Sometimes parents push way way to hard, untill the kid thinks he whole life is worthless without sports. If you have never read about (or personally known) someone who has been pushed to hard you should know that being involved has not been their choice for a long time. To state that all americans in the olympics are voluntarily there, while all chinese are forced is just pompus posturing.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 03:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Any discussion of American dominance in sports AND olympics needs to include the following word:
"Slavery"
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, no it really doesn't.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 03:35 PM
major flaw in your "argument"
China has over a billion people, they have 52 medals.
Australia has 43, does that mean that Australia is overperforming? No, population is not all that relevant here.
Garbonzo
08-26-2004, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any discussion of American dominance in sports AND olympics needs to include the following word:
"Slavery"
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, no it really doesn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, ok, then you think if there were nearly zero black people in the US prior to 1901, and then some sort of reasonable estimate of immigration to the US in this past century, the US would have the same dominance?
This is what I understand your statement to mean. Please correct me if I am wrong.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 03:50 PM
I am fine, really I am, actually I am enjoying the discussion.
[ QUOTE ]
What i said was that without opportunity people busting their asses in america would be just like people busting their asses in other countries.
[/ QUOTE ] It seems like you are assuming everyone in America is born with a silver spoon in their mouth. My parents worked real hard to get where their at, and believe me, they are not rich by any means.
[ QUOTE ]
i take issue with Bill's spin on the world because he ignores other Major factors which have contributed to the situation. Statements like his are a knock against all non middle/upperclass americans- as well as people in other countries. It implies that if the lower class would just get off its ass and work they could enjoy the lifestyle in they way that he does.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't think he meant that actually. Bill is a smart guy(you or others may not want to believe it), he listens to a lot of his viewers, he knows how hard people work, especially the lower class, and thats why I think he said what he did. IMO, I thought he was talking about many European countries which have become essentially welfare states, and how people there take a lot for granted, or think they don't need to work as hard because the government is taking care of them.
[ QUOTE ]
See we keep agreeing on certain points, just like in the other homophoe thread.
[/ QUOTE ] whats a homophoe /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Listen, most athletes in the Olympics are there participating in sports that they probably didn't grow up playing, thats fairly obvious. But many of them grew up playing other sports and decided later on in their life to try something different. Maybe they played football, were really fast, but couldn't catch, or didn't like to get hit, so they tried track and field. Or maybe someone who use to play soccer decides he wants to try team handball, so he gives that a try. However, there are not USOC officials going around actively searching for athletes, its more like the athletes go to them.
Hallett
08-26-2004, 03:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
major flaw in your "argument"
China has over a billion people, they have 52 medals.
Australia has 43, does that mean that Australia is overperforming? No, population is not all that relevant here.
[/ QUOTE ]
You missunderstand. Canada, with 1/10th the population of the US, has 1/10th the medals. In this expample, ratios based on population show the two countries doing roughly equal. This is even though Canada has an entitlement mentality, and the US has a more "individuals first" mentality.
Yes, China has less medals than you would expect, based on population, and Australia has more. I think that would be explained with a couple of points:
Australia plowed lots of money into their Olympic program in advance of the last Olympics, and are still seeing the benefits of it. I would venture that if you were to look at the 2012 games, they would slide back to a win rate that would be more inline with their population.
China on the other hand, has become more and more a world power in the last 10 years or so. In the 1970's, their economic system and focus on world sports was substantially different. I would expect that in 2008, the money that they have plowed into their Olympic program, combined with an increasing presence on the world stage, will see them with a medal count that is considerably higher.
My frustration with your original post was that there is some link between the entitlement culture in Canada and their (perceived) weak showing in the Olympics. When I compared Canada to the US, which you held out as superiour, you abandonded that argument and brought up Australia vs. Canada. I think the fact that they Olympics were recently there, and the resultant increased funding to sport is reflected in their medal count. Have you compared Canada with New Zealand? With France? How about Spain and Denmark? I am sure Australia is kicking them all too. Are Australians just better athletes? Better than even the mighty US?
I don't beleive so. I submit that Australia is an exception based on the Olympics being a high priority for them in the last ten years, and everyone else, with some exeptions based on economic development, is doing as expected, even Canada.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 03:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, ok, then you think if there were nearly zero black people in the US prior to 1901, and then some sort of reasonable estimate of immigration to the US in this past century, the US would have the same dominance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone knows that the vast majority of African Americans are descendents of African slaves, but other than that, what relevance does slavery have to this discussion.
African-Americans are not even participating in all the events nor are they medaling in every event. Americans are winning in plenty of sports. Our dominace in the Olympics has little to do with us having some African-American athletes. So Slavery is irrelavant to this entire discussion.
Garbonzo
08-26-2004, 04:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, ok, then you think if there were nearly zero black people in the US prior to 1901, and then some sort of reasonable estimate of immigration to the US in this past century, the US would have the same dominance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone knows that the vast majority of African Americans are descendents of African slaves, but other than that, what relevance does slavery have to this discussion.
African-Americans are not even participating in all the events nor are they medaling in every event. Americans are winning in plenty of sports. Our dominace in the Olympics has little to do with us having some African-American athletes. So Slavery is irrelavant to this entire discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree, completely.
However, this is not the time or place to have this massive discussion. I'm not up for, nor necessarily capable, of writing an essay that would address this issue fully.
Sorry to divert.
rusty JEDI
08-26-2004, 04:29 PM
First off one question. Saltcracka do you actually believe everything you are saying? Are you playing devil's advocate?
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but what about sports like swimming, track, wrestling? College's aren't really supporting sports like these, and high school really only progresses them so far.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is just wrong. They have said many times over that the NCAA swim program is a major reason they are performing so well in the water. Also, many swimmers from other countries are coming to compete in the US college circuit to get top level experience.
Now from someone else's post
[ QUOTE ]
Australia plowed lots of money into their Olympic program in advance of the last Olympics, and are still seeing the benefits of it. I would venture that if you were to look at the 2012 games, they would slide back to a win rate that would be more inline with their population.
[/ QUOTE ]
It should also be added that a large portion of their medals come from swimming. Now if you look at Australia it is a huge country, but the majority of the population lives on the coast. This leads to a lot of swimming. Now add in sharks and alligators and you get some fast swimmers. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
rJ
tolbiny
08-26-2004, 04:37 PM
"It seems like you are assuming everyone in America is born with a silver spoon in their mouth. My parents worked real hard to get where their at, and believe me, they are not rich by any means."
I am not assuming that everyone in america was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. However just being born in a 1st world country puts you way above 75% of the worlds population- and that if your born into the lower economic class.
As for the "welfare states" that europe has become, i have the serious urge to avoid this discussion as it will surely lead to arguments that are very wide ranging. If you wish to have this debate feel free to start another thread and i am sure i will contribute.
Bill is a smart guy(you or others may not want to believe it
i believe that bill is a smart guy. Doesnt mean his opinions are helpfull in anyway. I believe that bill has figured out how to say things that large groups of people want to hear. "america is the greatest country in the world" Who woulnd't want to think that about their country? "America is great solely because of the hard work of its people" Who wouldn't want to hear that about themselves? As i think we have agreed upon hard work isnt the sole reason for america's greatness. it was a combination of resouces/events AND hard work that led to this situation. Bill easily overlooks the fact that third world countries produce a lot of our products for what is barely above slave labor. That what we get we deserve, fully and without question. There have been a lot of countries in the #1 spot throughout history. Explotation of others, a gross feeling of self security, and changes in economics have knocked all of them out of their spot. Will it happen to us? Almost certainly as long as americans believe that whatever they do is right simply because they do it. And people like bill foster this belief.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 04:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is just wrong. They have said many times over that the NCAA swim program is a major reason they are performing so well in the water. Also, many swimmers from other countries are coming to compete in the US college circuit to get top level experience
[/ QUOTE ] My mistake on swimming. But my point is still valid though. Many of the sports in the Olympics are not all the popular in the U.S., or really supported by colleges. Just because they have the sport there doesn't mean it gets a lot of support. A disgustingly huge amount of money goes to two sports, Football and Basketball, and that was my point.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 04:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As for the "welfare states" that europe has become, i have the serious urge to avoid this discussion as it will surely lead to arguments that are very wide ranging. If you wish to have this debate feel free to start another thread and i am sure i will contribute.
[/ QUOTE ] Ultimately, that was the main point I think he was trying to make, that many Europeans lack the work ethic to excell at many things, because they live in welfare states. That may or may not be true, I don't know, I am not a expert of European domestic policy, so I won't start the thread.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 05:03 PM
why do you bring it up then if you don't want to discuss it. I would love to hear your reasoning for disgareeing with me. Please tell me what events the US has a predominately black population performing in, my guess, sprints and baseketball. The rest of our athletes are representative of our multi-cultural population, all of which are participating in a wide array of events.
Here off the top of my head, here are some sports we have medalled in at the games. Swimming, softball, track and field, gymnastics, volleyball, and wrestling. Please tell me out of our 70+ medals how many have been won by black people. If that number is over 50%, then you can talk about how Black Americans are dominating the Olympics. Then you can go on your rant about how slavery has everything to do with it. But my guess, is that the number is probably closer to 25-30%.
MaxPower
08-26-2004, 05:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i believe that bill is a smart guy. Doesnt mean his opinions are helpfull in anyway. I believe that bill has figured out how to say things that large groups of people want to hear. "america is the greatest country in the world" Who woulnd't want to think that about their country? "America is great solely because of the hard work of its people" Who wouldn't want to hear that about themselves?
[/ QUOTE ]
Zeno recently posted a link to a Bertrand Russel essay on Intellectual Rubbish.
http://www.luminary.us/russell/intellectual_rubbish.html
I think this passage is relevant to what you are saying:
[ QUOTE ]
Be very wary of opinions that flatter your self-esteem. Both men and women, nine times out of ten, are firmly convinced of the superior excellence of their own sex. There is abundant evidence on both sides. If you are a man, you can point out that most poets and men of science are male; if you are a woman, you can retort that so are most criminals. The question is inherently insoluble, but self esteem conceals this from most people. We are all, whatever part of the world we come from, persuaded that our own nation is superior to all others. Seeing that each nation has its characteristic merits and demerits, we adjust our standard of values so as to make out that the merits possessed by our nation are the really important ones, while its demerits are comparatively trivial. Here, again, the rational man will admit that the question is one to which there is no demonstrably right answer. It is more difficult to deal with the self esteem of man as man, because we cannot argue out the matter with some non-human mind. The only way I know of dealing with this general human conceit is to remind ourselves that man is a brief episode in the life of a small planet in a little corner of the universe, and that, for aught we know, other parts of the cosmos may contain beings as superior to ourselves as we are to jellyfish.
[/ QUOTE ]
This essay also the addresses the issue of what is "natural" - which is relevant to the discussion in the homophobia thread.
Easy E
08-26-2004, 05:22 PM
Some have postulated that they are gearing up for a total medals victory when they host the Olympics
And O'Reilly falls for the same illusion of "self-reliance" that many people do- not just in sports, but in business and other areas. The term "self-made (wo)man" is one of the biggest myths that has ever been perpetrated.
MaxPower
08-26-2004, 05:27 PM
I think TheSaltCracka is wrong about everything except this. I think most of the US medals have been won by White people.
spamuell
08-26-2004, 05:39 PM
I haven't read the whole thread (I don't usually do this but I'm tired) so maybe this point has already been made but:
[ QUOTE ]
the USA had won 71 Olympic medals
[/ QUOTE ]
The USA has a population of like 250 million right?
[ QUOTE ]
In other countries, the emphasis on self-reliance has been beaten down by nanny states and entitlement cultures. Just take a look at Australia...The Aussies have 20 million people to draw from... Yet the Aussies have 35 Olympic medals.
[/ QUOTE ]
So a country with less than 1/10th of the population of the USA has about 1/2 of the medals that the US has. Yeah, USA! USA! You're really dominating those Olympics alright.
ThaSaltCracka
08-26-2004, 05:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think TheSaltCracka is wrong about everything except this.
[/ QUOTE ] FWIW, I am not really trying to argue FOR O'Reilly. I agree with him that hard work goes a long way, but thats about where I stop in regards to agreeing with what he said.
superleeds
08-26-2004, 07:05 PM
Because the US has a large population and is rich
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