Calling the river redux

So here's the hand that got me thinking. I'll use that age-old disclaimer: please don't critique my play.


I scope out the 10-20, and though it doesn't look too tough, I don't know most of the players.


I sit down and post in the cutoff, and get dealt Jh8h. Two limpers in front of me, I limp, SB raises, BB calls, limpers call, I call. 5 handed.


Flop is QJ3 with 2 hearts. SB bets, all call, I raise, All call.


Turn is a Q. SB checks, BB bets (!), fold fold, I call, SB calls. I stared them down, and put the SB on AK, and the BB on a hand. BB had that look like he wanted me to raise him.


River is an offsuit 10. SB bets, BB calls. I fold.


Results (no suspense from me): BB shows a busted flush draw triumphantly, and SB shows A10s(not hearts) for a pair on the river. I get a sick feeling, realizing I just threw a $300 pot away. The thing is, there was no way I could analyze their hands that made me the winner, not even at a 15-1 shot.


So here's my point: I usually consider myself a river master. I routinely make table-shocking calls with ace high, etc, I'm almost never the outkicked guy, I know how to lay down a hand when I need to. But, I've noticed this flaw lately, that I don't know how to deal with mediocre hands, like busted draws.


Here's my problem, game theoretically: let's say it's the turn, and I'm on the draw, where I have odds to see the river for one big bet but not two, so I call. The river comes and I miss, but now the pot is laying me good odds to call the river bet, and there's some chance I'm ahead. If I call and lose, it makes my turn call seem silly, if the pot wasn't offering me sufficient pot odds to call 2 big bets. I know, in reality I should be taking into account that chance that I'm still ahead on the turn, but I feel like there's some dissonance, like I'm making two separate independent decisions.


So my question is, how do you guys factor in your river play when making turn decisions?

Your turn decision was the reason you lost this pot. There is no way you cannot raise the turn. But you said don't critique your play so I won't


"The river comes and I miss, but now the pot is laying me good odds to call the river bet, and there's some chance I'm ahead."


Well gee, wouldn't a "river master" know the correct play given this statement? "laying me good odds" ... some chance I'm ahead" It almost seems like a no brainer to me and I'm not a master of the river. The only question is do you raise the river or just call. Since raising may drive out a better J it just may be the best play. But to answer your question if you are getting correct odds to call with a hand that has a chance of being the best then folding is not an option.


Vince

I looks like you kind of already know. Try not to let the results of one hand make you second guess what you know to be true about holdem. The fact is sometimes when calling the turn you do so knowing that you will likely have to call the river and other times not unless you improve. A couple of examples that come to mind(though I don't really know if they answer your question) are: calling the turn headup against a solid player who's raised preflop when you hold a medium(pocket?) pair, with no A's on the board--you know that very often he will check behind you on the river with unimproved high cards, if he bets the river you will often fold. Another situation that comes to mind was related by David Sklansky some time ago(though I can't remember the source and I hope that I tell it right), where David had A-wheel card, and a gutshot draw on the turn, and called a bet headup, when he missed it went check, check on the river and David's A-high was good, his opponent stated that he was glad that he checked because it was obvious that David was going to call the river too with A-high. But the whole point of the story, as David said, was that he was NOT going to call the river with A-high, but that he believed the likelihood of improving plus the liklihood that his A was good and that his opponent would dog it on the river made his turn call correct. I tried this particular play atleast two times that I can remember with success(and the time I made the wheel I beat a real hand--heehee).


Again, don't let the results of one hand make you second-guess yourself. The "best river-player in the world(if there is one)" doesn't never throw away winner. You couldn't call in that spot based on the way the hand played and neither would many of the worst calling-stations. I know that its been said before that you're not playing well if you never throw away a winner.


Take it easy,


Mike

went for the fruit plate. Call. No reraise on the flop may mean no queen out there.


Enough in the pot--CALL!