A Challenge

[DrPhysic]

I have a couple of times recently paraphrased Al Capone Jr’s remark about “chicken****, lilly livered, post oak, min raises.” One time referring to my own hand. I am beginning to understand that he was right.

I propose a challenge. To myself. Anybody else that wishes to play is invited.

When I return on Sunday, (I will be out of town and away from the computer until then), I am going to put a pad beside my computer. I am going to put a mark on the pad every time I make a min raise for one week. I will count marks at Noon EDT Sunday Sept 5. I will also put a mark in a separate column for each SNG or multi game I play, so I can report min raises per game.

The challenge is to play poker for one full week without making a single 1BB raise.

That does not count the forced bet when I am in the BB, or the bet first out on any round starting with the flop. It does not count limps. It only counts raises.

I’ll bet I can’t keep the min raises to less than one a game for a full week.

But I’m going to try. I will for one week attempt to make folds, calls, or real raises.

Anybody else that wants to try (you have to promise to keep an honest count), sign up on this thread. Reports will be after Noon EDT Sunday Sept 5.

A secondary question that will be asked is “Did your ITM, ROI, or bankroll go up during the experiment?”

Doc /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Note: Since the question will obviously come up… “post oak raise” is Doyle Brunson’s term for a min raise. To the best of my knowledge he never explained its origin.

[mackthefork]

I think i saw you do about 20 of them in the euro sng, I hate the bloody things, I personally stopped doing them a long time ago, I also hate the min reraise, if everyone could stop these moves the world would be a much nicer place /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Regards Mack

[Tosh]

To say that a 1BB raise is ALWAYS wrong is wrong. If I can steal someone's blinds by raising the minimum why would I raise more?

[DrPhysic]

Your knowledge and mine of a weakness in my game is why I am doing this.

Doc

[DrPhysic]

I had a circumstance in the Tuesday 2+2 SNG that I made a min raise from either the button or CO, I don't remember. I hoped it left the blinds wondering whether I was stealing or had a monster. heyrocker thought about it a long time in the BB then folded. Successful steal. I think there is a place for it. I also think I do it far too often. Therefore my challenge to me: try to learn to play without it for a full week. And I think I am probably not the only one who plays with this weakness. It is too easy to hit the raise button, which is a 1BB raise.

Doc

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I don't know what to say, Doc. In all the NL tourneys I've played this year, I've min-raised exactly once. It was in a 2-table SNG, I was 2nd short-stack with 5 left and 9 BB left with the blinds going up in 1 minute. I got AA UTG and minraised, and got reraised all-in and doubled up.

That was my one and only time.

[Tosh]

I don't do it often, and when I do it is only when blinds are big late in a multi and noone will get involved without a big hand.

[DrPhysic]

Probably the reason I, and a lot of others, consider you to be a far better player than I am. I am still learning. And this is simply the most recent deficiency I have identified in my game, albeit a glaring one.

I will also bet that I am not the only one guilty of this, which is why I posted it. Maybe after a week of serious concentration on not making poor raises, my game will improve a notch.

But probably not enough to converse in Klingon.

Doc

[hyde]

I'm trying to be more agressive myself.
as I have made all to public, I love to slow play..I just hate the results......
I try to minraise only when I wish to be reraised
or late, when the blinds are huge.
and sometimes the raise button is too convienent..
I might be using it more than I think...I'll accept your challange and keep track.

hyde

[RPatterson]

I have never minumum raised once in my life.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
To say that a 1BB raise is ALWAYS wrong is wrong. If I can steal someone's blinds by raising the minimum why would I raise more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course this is correct, but remember 'if' is the longest word in the world. I can't remember stealing many blinds with these raises, maybe when the blinds are a significant portinion of the average stack, but not in the early stages.

Regards Mack

[Ian J]

The only time I use the min-raise is late in a sng when the blinds are extremely high and I have AA, KK, or QQ. Other than that specific situation, I just don't like it. Does anyone else use it this way?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Remember that the idea is to find the smallest raise that will give you the best expectation (fold equity + showdown equity). When you minraise, your fold equity goes way down *plus* you make it easy for the BB to call with a wide range of hands (among other things) which makes it harder for you to guage where you are on later streets.

[Phill S]

slag off this play, your welcome to.

if im dealt a big hand (AA, KK, QQ) late in the game in CO or button, i always miniraise (BB around 400+)(unless im very short and the raise itself is a big chunk of my stack).

it has three effects:
1, if im called im putting value into a pot im gonna be taking down on the flop
2, if the blinds have a hand (a big, sometimes even mid size ace, KQ) then theyll re-raise as they see it as a steal. i put it all in preflop and take it down that way.
3, if they fold, well i got the maximum, an all in would do the same

id like to think this is the only time i miniraise (im sure i don it now and again beyond this play). however one big thing to note is i dont paly at party. with less chips on the table, i dont think id make this play.

Phill

[The once and future king]

This challenge would be akin to me trying to see how often I could not stick red hot needles in my eyes whilst watching tv.

Why do you even want to mini raise?

To make it easier for you to keep disipline, donate 1$ to charity every time you do it. As at present this is what you are doing by mini raising- donating.

Of course in some cases mini raising is of course the right action, but it must be for a very good reason as such as the klingons example.

[mackthefork]

As i was reading this...............

[ QUOTE ]
To make it easier for you to keep disipline, donate 1$ to charity every time you do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly what i was thinking..... /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
As at present this is what you are doing by mini raising- donating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very amusing.

Regards Mack

[DrPhysic]

Phill and Kurn,
Ref Phill's comments:

The two kinds of hands I tend to minraise with (probably far too often to be effective) are AA, KK, and 22 - 66.

May be wrong but I tend to agree with phill about the sleeper value of the big hands, the small pairs really need a cheap flop, and playing them in the same manner helps hide the big hands.

Probably still not the way to play these, I know that many of the better players use the same opening raise regardless of what they are holding if they choose to play at all, but it has been reasonably effective.

I guess it's time to learn to play some of these hands with the big boys. And I will probably screw it up a few times before I get a handle on the post flop play when you do that.

Doc

[Eder]

Well I doubt the mini raise is a mistake with AA other than a lot of people do this and might end up being a tell...the benefits of standard raising is deception...which might be of much more value than getting a few more calls by mini raising the bullets...jmo

[nogoodatpoker]

I used to use the buttons almost exclusively when I started at UB. The min raise and bet pot buttons were just too convenient. My solution was to type in every bet I made. Using the slider can give you "suggestions" - oh, it says 200 in the box, that sounds good - where, if you have to type the number yourself, you have to think about why you are making that particular size of bet.

[DrPhysic]

I have gotten some education, a couple of cheap shots, and only one taker on my challenge. So let's try it. No dumb bets all week, eh?

Doc

[rybones]

I also agree that to say the min. raise is always wrong is wrong. What about the time you come up against someone that loves to come over the top of your min raises? what if you have the hand and if you check or bet the pot she will fold? will you still count that?

That said, I love the challange!!!

there is something to be said for forcing yourself to play in a disciplined manner! the other day, I tried to go three game without playing suited connectors. I only gave in once and that was with A,K and I lost that hand. Talk about carma. Anyway I was in the money all three games. Alas, I am sure I play much smaller limits than you all. But I still think the challange is a good one.

[DrPhysic]

Hyde,

I have been pretty busy working this week, so didn't play as much as I wanted. I have played 22 games, of which about 8 were HU, 2 were MTTs, the rest were about evenly split between $27 Turbos, and $33 SNGs. I have min-raised 4 times. Twice because the blinds were so big that if I didn't want to push, I could not make any other raise, and twice just by hitting the raise button without thinking.

My aggressiveness seems better, I have won a lot more pots without showdown. I am going to have to get used to stack management when I am committing a larger portion of it every time I do make a raise. The ROI this week was +ev but nothing to write home about.

Overall, I think a good learning process.

If you don't mind the flak from the professional bystanders that have never min-raised in their lives, let me know how you did.

Doc