SSH might be making me passive

[daveymck]

Early in session no read on the three bettor

Had SSH in mind didnt need to build pot or clean outs on flop.

Think I should have raised the turn.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (20 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 24 BB, between Hero and MP2.</font>

[sthief09]

bet the flop and hope MP2 raises you. that would clean up your outs just fine.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (20 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

The rest of the hand plays itself.

Rob

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
bet the flop and hope MP2 raises you. that would clean up your outs just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Waiting until the Turn to bet/raise would be a better idea.

[sthief09]

why? on the flop he has nothing. why are you going to invest 2 BB on the turn against a guy that probably has a pocket pair? he's not folding, given all the preflop action he gave. I generally like to bet and raise when I actually have something, rather than nothing. getting 3-bet on the turn would be pretty disastrous.

[BottlesOf]

It's very rare that I cap pf, and check the flop.

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
why? on the flop he has nothing. why are you going to invest 2 BB on the turn against a guy that probably has a pocket pair? he's not folding, given all the preflop action he gave. I generally like to bet and raise when I actually have something, rather than nothing. getting 3-bet on the turn would be pretty disastrous.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't protect his outs on the flop considering the pot size while on the turn he obviously can. The turn raise is to prevent reverse domination in case of a spiked A or K on the river. If the turn is 3-bet, it's no big deal since you can fall back on your flush draw.

[daveymck]

Pre reading SSH I would have bet out on the flop, I probaably misapplied everything as its a bit pot on the flop but I want really sure where I was on the flop. MP's 3 bet is generally going to be AK - AA-JJ, out of those hands only AK I am equal too and only QQ I can out draw, I cant count my diamond outs so even discounting the 3 bet I am drawing to a backdoor flush and maybe 1.5 outs each at best for the A &amp; K.

The pot is big so I have to see the turn raising achieves nothing as I dont believe its clearing up my outs and I dot want to pay 2sb's to see the turn.

Once the heart comes on the turn I still feel I am drawing to the flush, I dont need to clean up the flush outs and if the A or K spikes my TPTK beats any current realistic unmade hand or and as above ahead or behind the 3 bet hand that isnt going to be cleaned anyway.

The other reason to raise is to build the pot but as it is big already again I dont think I need to.

I'm still not 100% sure when this hand happens again in a big pot how I will handle it and if I will do it different.

[MAxx]

I think that c/r the turn is very wrong... and here's why. Your are pumping your flush draw w/out the correct number of callers. you are not doing anything else... you are not clearing up outs b/c they already put a bet in... b/c this wouldnt be a raise... it would be a c/r. You are 4.1 to 1 against to complete flush on river. Since you cannot elimiate reverse domination in this spot, that part idea is out the window. However your A or K outs may still be good if river pairs. Instead of 6 outs for those, lets say you have 3 (seems reasonable to me- maybe even overly generous, but I am not yet proficient at discounting outs precisely yet). So lets say you have 9 flush outs plus 3 over card outs on the turn. So now you are 2.8 to 1 with only 2 callers. In this situation you are still not getting positive expectation for your overlay. Checkraising is wrong here.

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that c/r the turn is very wrong... and here's why. Your are pumping your flush draw w/out the correct number of callers. you are not doing anything else... you are not clearing up outs b/c they already put a bet in... b/c this wouldnt be a raise... it would be a c/r. You are 4.1 to 1 against to complete flush on river. Since you cannot elimiate reverse domination in this spot, that part idea is out the window. However your A or K outs may still be good if river pairs. Instead of 6 outs for those, lets say you have 3 (seems reasonable to me- maybe even overly generous, but I am not yet proficient at discounting outs precisely yet). So lets say you have 9 flush outs plus 3 over card outs on the turn. So now you are 2.8 to 1 with only 2 callers. In this situation you are still not getting positive expectation for your overlay. Checkraising is wrong here.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn I would bet and hope to get raised. That is all.

[MaxPower]

This is not an easy one. I have thought long and hard about this.

In my opinion, the best line for this hand is to check-call the flop and bet the turn. Check-raising the turn makes no sense.

I'll let others elaborate. Not because I'm trying to be an a-hole just because I have to get some work done today. Let's see if I'm right.

[Evan]

Don't cap then check-call the flop. You let your opponent take control of the hand.