A couple of QQ underpair hands in the Party 15

[ike]

Hand 1:

7 handed

UTG raises, MP coldcaller, I 3bet on the button, blinds fold, both call.

Flop: 4d 3c Ad

UTG checks, MP bets, I raise, UTG folds, MP calls.

Turn: Jh

MP bets, I raise, MP calls.

River: 3h

Check, check.

Results: <font color="white"> MP has Td8d, MHIG </font>

Hand 2:

10 handed

3 EP/MP limpers, I raise with QQ in LP. Button coldcalls, blinds call, limpers call.

Flop: A 7 3 r

Checked to me, I bet, one of the PF limpers calls.

Turn: A

He bets, I call

River is a blank

He checks, I bet, he calls.

Results: <font color="white"> He has ATo, I lose </font>

[stoxtrader]

hand 1 is fine, I would fold to a turn 3 bet vs a sold/tigh player.

hand 2 - is a check/fold on the flop weak tight? do you have odds/implied odds to draw to your 2 outer? With action like this, how often does someone have an A? it's gotta be 90%+, maybe 95%+....

[Nightwish]

Hand 1: Do you really think your hand is good here often enough? After your flop raise, it takes a special player to turn bet anything less than an A into a guy who raised preflop and the flop with an A on the board.

Hand 2: Looks good to me.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

hand 2 - is a check/fold on the flop weak tight? do you have odds/implied odds to draw to your 2 outer? With action like this, how often does someone have an A? it's gotta be 90%+, maybe 95%+....

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I'm hoping this is a typo and you meant to say fold on the turn because check/folding on the flop would be just awful. But folding on the turn is wrong too. You have to realize that the second A makes it less likely that the opponent has an A himself. When you couple that with the fact that most players would check-raise their trips here instead of betting out, it becomes a fairly easy call down. Many Party players will play a smaller pair this way in the hope that the hero gets scared by the second A and folds.

[stoxtrader]

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I'm hoping this is a typo and you meant to say fold on the turn because check/folding on the flop would be just awful

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I would like to point out that in hand 1 3 players see the flop and in hand 2, 7 players see the flop.

A flop fold may be bad poker in #2, but I certainly don't see how you can me so emphatic about it - I thikn it's closer. A check may get you a free card as only the button is left to act behind you. There are 14 bets in the post at that point, and implied odds may get him to the 2 outer. how often is this not a two outer though with 7 players seeing a flop for two bets? I would say 90%+ and its gonna cost you 2.5 bets to see a showdown. The odds of no A out there do increase when it's 5 checks to you on the flop, but by how much? maybe once in a while you get someone to fold Ax, which I doubt, but I still think check folding the flop is a viable option, someone convince me otherwise.

[Pot-A]

I don't think a flop check-fold is bad at all here. There is virtually no chance QQ is the best hand with that many people seeing the flop, and it has only two outs.

[ike]

Doesn't it take an equally "special" player to stop and go with the ace there? The turn bet just doesn't make sense.

[Nightwish]

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Doesn't it take an equally "special" player to stop and go with the ace there? The turn bet just doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
An A with a rag might do that.

[Nightwish]

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I'm hoping this is a typo and you meant to say fold on the turn because check/folding on the flop would be just awful

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to point out that in hand 1 3 players see the flop and in hand 2, 7 players see the flop.

A flop fold may be bad poker in #2, but I certainly don't see how you can me so emphatic about it - I thikn it's closer. A check may get you a free card as only the button is left to act behind you. There are 14 bets in the post at that point, and implied odds may get him to the 2 outer. how often is this not a two outer though with 7 players seeing a flop for two bets? I would say 90%+ and its gonna cost you 2.5 bets to see a showdown. The odds of no A out there do increase when it's 5 checks to you on the flop, but by how much? maybe once in a while you get someone to fold Ax, which I doubt, but I still think check folding the flop is a viable option, someone convince me otherwise.

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So what happens if it gets checked around on the flop and the turn brings some rag but also puts a flush draw on the board? Let's say EP now leads out and gets a caller. What do you do? You have absolutely no idea where you stand. Your flop check encouraged both the flush draw and the small pocket pairs to bet and call, but then it could also be an A betting. Do you call the turn and the river? Do you fold?

I'd much rather follow through by betting the flop and not giving free cards or encouraging people to take shots at me on the turn, especially since everyone has already shown such weakness. If someone raises, then you can fold the turn.

[Senor Choppy]

Both hands look good, although I might be inclined to take a free card off in hand #2 and see how much action there is when it gets to me on the next street. I'd hate to get check-raised on the flop and not get to see the turn when there are 14 small bets in the pot. By playing it this way, you're probably putting in 1 small bet more than normal to see a showdown, assuming you raise a late player's bet on the turn, but when behind you probably save a 1-3 small bets, and occasionally you'll steal a pot from someone that planned on check-raising you.

[ike]

Might isn't good enough to fold in a big pot and I think raising is strictly better than calling. If he has the flush draw a significant minority of the time here I'm very happy with my play.