Trouble with draws

[toby]

Here's a situation I run into fairly often. I build up my stack and then go allin on a draw and lose. I think I'm playing these draws incorrectly because it happens fairly often. This is the last hand of the session:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 6 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($57.75)
Button ($68.64)
<font color="C00000">SB ($19)</font>
BB ($7.02)
UTG ($21.90)
<font color="C00000">Hero ($13.61)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50, UTG folds.

Flop: ($6.50) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets $2</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $11.61 (All-In)</font>, SB calls $11.61, BB folds.

Turn: ($31.72) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($31.72) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $31.72
<font color="green">Main Pot: $31.72, between SB and Hero.</font>

OESD and 2nd nut flush draw. Not too much money in front of me, should I put it all in on the flop? (Villain had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the win)


Another hand I had 9/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif on the button and raised to 1. BB called. Flop was JTx, 1 club. He bet 1 I raised to 3. BB calls and the turn is a low club. He checks and I push. River is a T and his JT is golden.

I posted something like this in Psychology, about going all-in on big draws. Is this something I should avoid? All my losing sessions seem to involve busting out on a big draw.

Or should I stick to limit?? Any comments appreciated..

[schwza]

i'd buy in for more money, fold preflop, and push on the flop.

[Pokerho]

Why go all in on a 4 or 5 to 1 shot against you? In your example you had more outs, but still, if you are called you lose more than half the time. There are times when that is the correct play, but it should not be your standard play to go all in on a draw.

edit: actually in your example, you could have been beat by a flush already, so straight outs don't really count.

[BobboFitos]

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, Q.
UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50, UTG folds.

You have 13.61 and you are raising with QJo slightly more than 1/7th of your stack. Right away that is a huge leak.



Flop: ($6.50) T, 4, K (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $2, Hero raises to $11.61 (All-In), SB calls $11.61, BB folds.

At this point, thats not a horrible play by any means. I'm pretty surprised SB called with a gutshot and overcard, unless he felt his Ace high was good. (And against raising hands, interestingly, QJ is the only one he could beat; that guy must either have a "sick online read," or more likely gives far too much action.) Against someone like him, just wait for a better spot. If he's going to call your all in semibluff, just wait for a better spot to push. In addition, you have position on the blinds; I dont see a problem with calling 2 more dollars. (Of course, your stack is fairly shallow, so you pretty much "have to hit your hand," or you're done with it on the turn. Sucks, but it's the move)

[hoc]

i think you have two main problems. your not drawing to the nuts in either example. i also think your not counting your outs very well. if you are called in the first example then you are most likely getting called by the A or a made flush.

[square444]

The reason you'd go all in on a draw like this is:
a) the option that they'll fold, and
b) if they don't fold, you still have an open ended straight draw and a flush draw, with a chance to backdoor trips or two-pair.

If you backdoor trips or two pair, someone else might make a straight. When there are three diamonds on the flop, it's MUCH more likely that a Q or K high flush is not going to be good. Now you have to consider before you push: What are the chances that this guy will fold?, and if he doesn't what are the chances that I'll make my hand? and if you make your hand, what are the chances that it will be the best hand?

I'd fold preflop, and probably fold postflop.

[square444]

[ QUOTE ]

At this point, thats not a horrible play by any means. I'm pretty surprised SB called with a gutshot and overcard, unless he felt his Ace high was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had a gutshot, an overcard, and the nut flush draw, giving him 14 outs to make what was in his mind (and in reality) the best hand. (8 diamonds, 3 Q's, and 3 A's).