Was I out of line?

15/30 Bellagio,


Im on the button with 6/7 clubs. It comes 3 way limp to me i call. Flop has 2 clubs, I raise the flop after one bet and one call. We are now 3 going to the turn. Turn is blank, It goes check, check, I bet and first player folds and second player calls (we are now heads up). River is blank. He checks and i bet (with my 7 high, busted flush draw). He thinks for 15 seconds, and I say "I got a pair of kings". He says "If i fold will u show me your cards?" and i said yes. He folds and i show him my 7 high.


Was i out of line?

1) But you might want to be careful about pulling the underwear over someone's head like that. It can have plusses and minuses.


2) In similar situations, I've correctly deduced "yes" as meaning weak and "no" as meaning strong.


3) He may have folded a Q high flush draw that he had never had any intention of calling with, when all he (thought) he wanted was a look at your cards.

If you said "Yes I'll show you my cards," and then when he mucked you refused saying "Lying is part of poker," would you then be out of line?


How about if you said "I'll show you the king," but then didn't have one?


Really, when lying is out of line is when there is no longer an assumption that the statment you are making could be false without malicious intent. Often this isn't the case in poker, where "I have kings" usually means nothing. In a sense, that kind of statement isn't really a lie, it's more like being ironic. There's a fine line, however, so I usually prefer phrases like "You have to figure me for kings" etc.


ben

I wont judge the moral implication of your lie. But it appears to be a sign that you're desprate to win this pot at any cost, even with a trick. It may be OK to pull it off in a home game, with people you know well, as a joke in tongue and chick fashon. Otherwise, in a public cardroom, you would project an unflatering image.

Say he doesn't show, then the guy who wanted to see the cards tries to make it a point to beat him in future pots, isn't this profitable? I want people to try and run me down every hand. As for your image in the poker room is that really a big deal to most of you? I couldn't care less about what other poker players think about me I am there to make money, not to be nice to others. In the pokerroom I play in I very often will tell people to fold because I have the nuts, sometimes I do sometimes I don't, but I will almost always get a call because I have been caught lying before and recently it has started becoming very profitable because I am getting called down on every hand and don't need to bluff anymore. I am only 19 and don't know how many other poker rooms are because I have only been to mine and home games, but there is alot of talking that goes on at the tables and I find it is necessary to throw out alot of crap and lie to people, what are your poker rooms like and am I wrong to lie and try to make more money?

I think it's a personal choice, really. I would never try to shoot an angle like this. If someone did it to me, I'd make a mental note and warn others about this person - you certainly would be no friend of mine pulling an angle like this.


Make no mistake, I am at the card room to make money, but not by any means possible.


Were you out of line, no - you played within the rules of the game at Bellagio. But, I wouldn't hold a polite conversation with you after having seen you pull a stunt like this. I simply wouldn't want others to think I condoned your actions. Maybe that means something to you, maybe it doesn't.


soda

when i was reading your post, I was wondering why anyone would play the hand as poorly as you did.


when i read the dishonest, chicken-s**t way you conducted yourself in inducing a fold, I certainly wasn't surprised at the unsophisticated, -ev way you played the hand.


a table with 10 of you would mean I really could quit my day job . ..

I don't think this is any worse than a reverse tell.


Often when players think for an extended period of time before acting (especially in the situation described above) they are just waiting for your reaction to give away your hand. Many will even go as far as asking you what your hand is. To me, if it is acceptable for players to do this it is acceptable to defend yourself by lying. I personally usually go into a trance like state and ignore them for as long as it takes. To have to do this is just as anoying as listening to someone lie about their hand. When someone asks you about your hand it is usually disguised as a freindly joke, but they are only after the same information you are trying to protect when you blatantly lie. Poker is a game of desception and if you play you are willingly subjecting yourself to anything within the rules (and the law).


The big differnce in Tom's situation is that the lie was unprovoked. But I never asked anyone to question me about my hand before they make a river desision either. Anyway this will only work once on most players and it may backfire on others.


Just my opinion


Joe

If you're going to be deceitful, do it with your play not with your tongue. Show a little class, it will take you further in your career.

I dont do it.


I dont think the chance of possibly winning a few more bets is worth it. Like I said it will probably only work once on each player, and it may also backfire. Once people see it they will be gunning for you. If they dont already suspect it (I dont see why an experienced player wouldnt). Plus people will remember you as the jerk. And most importantly you will upset the unsuspecting Fish enough that he leaves the table.


However I cant see it as anything worse than many other commen antics at the table. Like I said once the hand is over everyone can see the players intentions. Unlike other devices which players will deny or hide. And he hasen't broken any rules. And yet when someone jokingly asks you before they act what what you have it is different. Everyone may have a smile on his face when he says this, but when I reply I am unintentionally giving away information on how I feel about my hand. But now you say it is unacceptable to lie to defend myself.


One other thing. I know in this case Tom spoke first. And he may have had to resort to this because of his poor play, but the other guy is also looking for a way out. He asked Tom to forfiet his right to disguise his hand. Now if Tom refuses and does what he did the other player can find satisfaction in his own bad play by making Tom look like a jerk.


Please remember. I dont do any of this. I am just being reasonable.


Joe

The day I start taking player's words at the poker table as truth, is the day that I stop playing poker. Part of poker is playing mind games with your opponents. In all the clubs that I play in, CARDS SPEAK, not players...so you can say you have 4 queens all you want to, and if some poor rabbits want to believe you, even though there is only 1 queen on the board, then that's their problem and their opportunity to learn a hard lesson, cuz until those cards are shown, "the chips ain't being shipped to anyone".


This kind of talk goes on constantly, both in my local cardrooms and at the casinos..."I got the nuts, don't even bother to call." "Would I bluff into you?!" "You gonna bet into my boat?!" "I wouldn't call me if I was you." Are we supposed to believe these players when they say this stuff? Why would they give their hands away? True, they might be trying to employ reverse psychology to induce a call, but you are better off considering all of the other factors and mostly ignoring the banter, unless you've noticed a tell on the guy. As an example, a rabbit at my club always chats it up when he's got a hand, trying to induce calls. The only ones who fall for it are the newbies, the rest of us know better. I don't think he knows that he does this (cuz I would assume he would stop doing it if he did...funny how nobody has ever mentioned this to him, eh? LOL!).


Frankly, I like when players talk crap at the table, cuz it tends to upset at least a couple of players who think it's "foolish and uncalled-for", and puts them on tilt (which is profitable for me). Personally, I stay neutral most times and don't talk much at all unless it's obvious that it's going to profit me by doing so. This is mostly done at the casinos, though, when I want to keep the rabbits at the table, laughing it up, drinking and gambling their rolls away.


Back to battle,


Riker

There's only one time you should ever trust a poker player...when he's sleeping.


Back to battle,


Riker

Am I missing something here? As I read this post, Tom never lied (unless you consider betting a busted draw a "lie"). Tom bet and his opponent asked him if he'd show his hand if he folded and Tom said "yes" and did as he'd said he would. Where's the lie? If I am running a stone cold bluff and someone tells me he'll muck if I agree to show him my hand I'd probably say yes as well (never actually happened to me). My regret would be giving away information on my play but I'd adjust (ie. it'd be awhile before I bluffed again and figure my value bets would now get paid off more frequently.


I just can't see what Tom did wrong and I have to say I'm almost sort of a prude when it comes to good poker ettiquette.


Claude

i read the responses and laughed ...my...ass off.


inside the ring, on the felt, and anything said there, is fair game. if the idiot wanted to see and folded, he deserved what he saw. next time you have the nuts against him, tell him.. he'll call and you can show him.


decietful? yes, but thats part of cards. and it's not cheating.


immoral? hell no. poker is war. ok?...flat out ..war. your chips are your battalions. bludgeon when able. take no prisoners and ram it down their throats.


if you can control an opponent like this do it. then let the table take shots at ya as ya tighten up.


would i say something like this? never done it i dont recall, but who knows. im usually pretty quiet on the table. i doubt id say it to a stranger though. ii like to watch em sit and stew on their decision, twisting in the wind.


this reminds me of the old farts who really get bent out of shape when you check raise em. "sandbaggin piece of.." they like to say. hey...FU it's part of cards pops!!! i rarely see players under 50 have a problem with this play btw.


if i was on the table, id have thought it was funny. id watch the bluffer a little more, but id also note the folder. especially if this play helps him tilt a little.


when someone tries this move on me, sometimes ill just say "really!?!" then raise em depending on my hand and my read. rarely do i give what they say face value. i may stop and replay the hand, but thats about it.


to the guy who wouldnt have a conversation with him later....


gotta separate the game from when your playing to when your not. sounds like you take this a little too personal. i know players who talk smack at the table like this, but off the table are very articulate in conversation and really cool guys.


to the guy who thought he played it terrible the whole way...


it wasnt played that bad. he raised his draw on the flop which sets up the option of a free card on the turn or a follow thru bluff. when he decides to bet the turn, he may as well bet the river too when he misses and try to win. its his only chance to win. and guess what? he won. albeit with a little prodding, but he may have folded anyway. and if your that quick to judge a player, on a hand that wasnt played that bad really, ill take ya in my game, and fluff a seat for ya. i already have a feeling for how you may play.


have a good one all...


b