54o 100-200 hand

[mike l.]

7 handed good game i post in the cutoff my first hand of the evening. i get 54o. utg folds, utg+1 fish limps, next guy quite loose and aggro raises, i call, bb call, utg+1 calls. 4 of us.

the flop is KK4 rainbow. checked to raiser who bets, i raise, folded back to him and he 3 bets, i call.

the turn is 8. he bets, i call.

the river is 8. he bets, i raise.

comments?

[nepenthe]

It's the only chance you have of winning your hand. Is he capable of folding the river on a board such as this with, say, Ace high? There's not much more to be said about a hand in which your only choice is to raise or fold.

Addendum: what would you have done if the river did not double-pair the board?

[mike l.]

"what would you have done if the river did not double-pair the board?"

either raised or called. i was trying to make up my mind when the 2nd 8 fell.

[ike]

I don't like the preflop call.

[DeeJ]

Looks ugly. He has to be capable of folding the river. With a small pot it's a nice play, did it work?

[FishyWhale]

I´m not sure if I like the flop raise because most people would wait until turn to raise their trips (and that´s what you would like to represent after all). Given that you didn´t, I think I´m folding to the flop 3-bet. Given that you didn´t, raise the turn, that just might make him fold his QQ or less. Given that you didn´t, I most likely wouldn´t raise the river, because with that much money in the pot, I´m definitely calling with 99 or better against LAP like you, very likely also with A high.

[obi---one]

I think you played the flop right, and I would call before the flop as well, but I probably get involved in too many pots and like position A LOT. On the turn do you think you have the best hand? IF so, I would raise the turn. If not, I would fold. However if you want to make a play and your instincts tell you to do it, you have to go for it because that is what seperates good from great, and at that point your cards don't matter. If you are not sure, a call is ok but the worst play on the turn. I hate the river raise, the pot is getting big and after three betting the flop and calling the turn it is going to be hard for him to lay down an ace high or better. Especially from a loose agro guy. I think the turn is the place to pop him if you are trying to make a play. I think you can only win the pot if he has nothing with you line of play.

[AviD]

I don't like the PF call at all. First hand of the night, but you have a read on the player, maybe from prior sessions with him? Do you really want to see a flop at least 3 way here as the UTG+1 is coming (if the BB folds) or even 4 way (if the BB comes along) with 54o? Doesn't seem like a +EV move by any means.

On the flop, I like the raise, but it screams you don't have a K. He can 3-bet a wide range of hands here including overs and just about every other bigger pocket...so his 3-bet doesn't tell you a whole lot about his hand and re-raising doesn't do anything for you.

His turn bet looks like a follow through of his 3-bet flop to push you out if he's drawing to overs or simply value betting his pair (believing you don't have a K and he can beat most other pockets), so calling isn't horrid if you are determined to see a showdown. On the turn, I wonder how likely he is to call if you raised here (smooth call flop 3bet, pop the turn on the bigger street play) if he'd lay down. If he comes back with a 3bet, you have an easy laydown...unless you suspect he would do that on a bluff given his LAG style...then I don't mind the call...but I prefer the raise to see how strong his holding is and to buy you a free showdown if he just calls.

On the river, the only way you winning this is by raising, so its either give up or pop it. You chose the latter, risking more chips vs a LAG who at this point is unlikely to laydown and likely has no qualms about calling 1 more big bet. He certainly doesn't have you on an 8 or a K (as you would have likely popped the turn with a K).

I just hate the PF call here, even if you wound up winning this hand by some miracle fold the LAG found or if he's holding something ludicrous like 34s, you could have saved alot of bets...better places with better holdings to take on a LAG whom you know you'll have to pay off to show down and will certainly pay you off when you have the goods. And granted, even LAGs are subject to quality holdings, so you may have even gotten re-raised here on the river and then had an easy fold in a big pot after investing far too much with an extremely weak hand.

[mikelow]

Whew! I would have folded preflop so I wouldn't have the opportunity to pull off this bluff. I'm not playing this one on the flop either as I find you lose too many bets to make up for what you gain (e. g. last night [PP 15-30] I decided to call down with K6s on a flop of QQ6 only be shown a queen).

Having committed to the hand, though, you have no choice but to raise on the river as you can't beat the board now. Does anyone call your bluffs?

[nykenny]

river raise, LIKE

[DcifrThs]

that is not at all the hand i expected to see from the heading...i thought i'd open it up and get a 54 hand from the blinds or something.

personally, i don't call any kind of raise from any kind of player w/ 54o. but clark'll tell ya, i'm probably just a hair tighter than some in some spots, this being one of 'em.

in any case, you call. flop comes just about the onlything you can be decently happy with other than giving you a great hand/great draw. he bets with what might be a large range of hands, you raise, he 3 bets and you call. how aggressive is this guy. 'quite loose and aggro' i guess can do this with aq and the like so you call looking to see a showdown.

then an 8 falls and he decides to bet the turn as a follow through / possible value bet. im mixed here about your play. for one thing, you want to see a showdown. for another, you'd also like him to lay down right now. but seeing as it would cost you 2 bets to show and 2 bets to raise here (assuming you can 100% fold to a 3bet) i'm going for the raise. if he lays down you're much better off than him seeing a river card for the one bet he put out on the turn. but if he calls he'll likely check to you on the river and you can either bet again or check (likely checking given almost any river other than a 4.)

given that you smooth called the turn you did the only thing you could to win the pot. make it 400 and he's gotta either call the extra 2 or fold. so since you know him, does he know you? does he think you're tight? your first hand at the table you got some good reads (likely from prior play or watching on the rail while on the list or at the table while you wait to post) but does he know who you are? ... either way the ONLY way you're winning this pot is to raise. but that is also the only reason you should raise whereas theres reasons to fold. 10.25 on the call so its 5.125:1 or he has to fold more than 1/6.125 times to make the raise profitable. i don't know about you but if he has an ace in his hand he's likely seeing a showdown, also a pair over 8's. so the degree of his preflop looseness is a key determinant in the probability he releases. given the play of the hand though it is VERY possible he'd release something like 77/66 that NOW cannot beat the board. so if he folds more than 16.3% of the time you make $$. all in all i say nice raise. he may have been behind you the whole time and now (QJs or something similar) thinks hes done for...if you take this pot from him wiht a hand that can't beat the board you've gained a lot. folding gains you 0. so again, nice raise.

but i think it would have been better to do it on the turn.

-Barron

[mike l.]

"Do you really want to see a flop at least 3 way here as the UTG+1 is coming (if the BB folds) or even 4 way (if the BB comes along) with 54o?"

since i have position on the field and at least one of the blinds will almost always come along, yes, yes i do. it's giving up too much to throw this one away for one bet preflop in what will be a 4-5 player flop and i have the button. in the bb it's a fold. in the cutoff it's a call. it is at the bottom of the barrel though of course.

"On the turn, I wonder how likely he is to call if you raised here"

see that's the problem, and there's no way you guys could know this, but previous encounters with him he's been reckless w/ reraising on the turn based solely on a read that i have nothing. so i was determined to wait until the river to make any sort of fold or raise decisions. i could not learn anything from a 3 bet from him on the turn. he could easily have AQ (or QJ or T9 or 22 all sorts of other hands) and i didnt want to be pushed off a marginal hand that was too likely to be good. so i wanted to try and use the river as a sort of lie detector.

[mike l.]

"i thought i'd open it up and get a 54 hand from the blinds or something."

you did. i posted in the cutoff. it was a blind.

[mike l.]

"but i think it would have been better to do it on the turn."

check out my reply to another post to see why that wasnt the case w/ this opponent.

anyway i raised the river and he released quickly so i won.

again i wanted to state that i did not cold call the raise preflop, i had posted in the cutoff and called one more bet.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
"i thought i'd open it up and get a 54 hand from the blinds or something."

you did. i posted in the cutoff. it was a blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

aka, not calling any sort of bet/raise...my bad ... i didn't clarify lol...i meant i thought ud get a free play

-Barron