How could he?

I had just been called for the 15-30 game and was looking at my last hand UTG while I rakced up in the 10-20 game. The game had a nice mix of strong and weak players but was fairly passive. Because of this I chose to limp with weak starters, QJo. The strongest player at the table raised and the BB protected as did I.

The three of us saw the flop of KTX rainbow with about 3 BB in. It went Chk, Chk Bet and I called after the BB folded. We turned another blank and after I checked and he bet, I decided it was time for a move so I raised. This is something that I do very seldom and thought that it might work against this player.

To my surprise, he called, so we saw the river with 8 BB in the pot. After a final blank, I bet and he called with AJo. Please help me with the thought process that goes into making this call.

Thanks

Well, he's getting 7.5:1 to see the river, where he knows he has 4, maybe as many as 10 outs if he's behind, so he calls.


Did the turn put a flush draw up on the board?


It could be he had you pegged as the type would would bet out or checkraise the flop with top pair/two pair, etc., and as such, assumed that you flopped some sort of draw, and the turn gave you more outs (i.e. a flush draw).


It could be that the turn is such a no-brainer call for him that on the river, he combined the 'curiosity factor' with the 'I may actually have the best hand' factor, and decided to call, expecting to lose.


It could be he misread his hand.


It could be he's never seen you before, and wanted to get an idea of how you played.


It could be you have a tell.


It could be a combination of these.


Josh

Easy:


1. "Dude probably has either a set or a draw as otherwise he probably would have bet or checkraised the flop"


2. Turn thinking..."I have a gut shot draw to the nuts"


3. River thinking..."oh well, one more bet...what the hell?"


4. Overall thinking..."I'll be damned if anyone ever bluffs me out"

QJo UTG? I hope that you don't take this with too much harshness(but instead constructive criticism).


It doesn't much matter what you're opponent was thinking. A player who will play this hand in such a manner isn't the best player in the world but; (and I wouldn't say this if I didn't do it myself) if you examine and refine your own play you won't have to spend as much time wondering how the other guy could play his hand so bad. Yeah, it might seem that you kinda got a "bad beat" in that this guy called you down after your "play" but maybe not. First of all, you have a bad(BAD) hand, I don't even much like this hand late position much less UTG(not to say that I won't play it late--raising it when no one's in). Second, you may not make "plays" as "seldom" as you think; it may seem seldom to you, the other guy might see you try this move three times a session and think that that's not so "seldom"(I don't mean to be presumptuous here--in this situation the definition of seldom could vary from person to person.


Finally, my own game has improved as I've been able to take responsibilty(to myself) for my own mistakes. When I play a hand or do something that I know better than, I'm more likely to improve if I realize that I could have kept myself out of the situation, rather than blame someone or something else for my smaller stack.


Good luck,


Mike

john,


youre talking about the 10-20 at hp im guessing and QJo is a perfectly reasonable hand to play utg in that passive joke of a good game. folding would be fine too of course though. i would normally fold it, but calling wont get you punished like it will in most other mid-limit games.


anyway, you played it fine although i think on the flop is the time to usually get excited with an open ended straight draw when youre almost a favorite. i really like your turn checkraise though.


i think you played it very well. your opponent's call was either expert hand reading or tell detection, or he's a complete calling station whom you can value bet against like crazy in the future. only future sessions with him will give you the answer.

What makes you any different from the "live ones" if you limp UTG with Q-Jo?

After a final blank, I bet and he called with AJo. Please help me with the thought process that goes into making this call.


I've put up about dozen posts in the last 6-8 weeks about calling on the river with an unimproved Ace-high in heads-up pots. Maybe he read one of them and gave it a try?

First of all, you can play this hand better than the live ones. If it gets raised and three bet, it's easy to dump for two more, where a live one may cap it.


Also, at this level, JQo can be a powerhouse (just kidding). But, it's not a terrible holding, especially if you have good control/reads on the table and can get away from it if it's in trouble.


Finally, I think we can agree that: if this hand is profitable or unprofitable in this position in such a weak game, then it is Marginally profitable or Marginally unprofitable, correct? Meaning - it's close either way. If so, then I'd argue that playing the hand is better than dumping it. The more hands you play, the more you blend in, the more action you get on your better hands, the more money you make. Because, if you are obviously tight to the other players - for example the tightest player at the table (and if you muck JQo UTG in this game, you probably are the tightest at the table) - then it's easier for weak players to fold against you - especially if they see or hear better players folding and making comments about how tight you play.


We're not talking about tournament play here or the 30/60 at the Mirage on a Wednesday afternoon, this was a 10/20 at Hollywood Park.


Anyway John, you said he was a good player, I find it strange that he made this call - he may have picked up a tell or you may be bluffing too frequently and he pegged you as a tricky aggressive earlier and called to see if he was right. Value bet more against him.


I had a guy last week call me with K high no kicker (he won), so next chance I got, I value bet a pair of three's against him on the end, he called and mucked. I asked him if he had King high, but he just ignored me. If they're going to call without pairs, value bet almost everything when heads up - until they adjust.


soda

Yea you might be correct. I guess it's just a question of style.


But consider this - If you're gonna play the hand well then you're gonna have to bet for value AND make good laydowns right? So that means that big river bet (won or saved) is probably what makes or breaks the EV for the hand right? So do you want to act first or last?

"What makes you any different from the "live ones" if you limp UTG with Q-Jo?"


1. you play better postflop than they do. way way better.


2. while QJo is one of the worst hands you limp with utg, they will limp with hands like Q80, 75o, A6o, etc, etc, etc.


im only talking from personal experience about a specific limit at a specific place btw and even that's only when it's ON.

How ccould he? Because the pot was big and he suspected you have a drawing hand. You limped under the gun and just called the flop bet. Easy to put you on straight draw. You should have made a move for the pot by check-raising the flop in this heads-up situation, after BB folded. He would have read you as having the top pair or better. This way, you would have given yourself reasonable chance of winning the hand by betting the turn and if necessary the river.

"So do you want to act first or last?"


if are able, every now and then, to make a well-advised river checkraise and get paid off (actually the easy part) then that will help in a big way towards making up for position when playing a weak hand like this against a field of bad players.

for the games youre in dynasty it's appropriate much of the time. plus youre running good and you make good reads on players.


for the 10-20 we suspect john is talking about it's an awful call.

I'd rather act last of course, but in these games position means a lot less than a tough game. But, I'd still rather be last. No question this is profitable hand on the button in these games.


soda