"When calling cannot be right" from SSH,(p.156)

[SWE]

When I first got the book this was a concept that I had trouble grasping. I must have reread that section at least 5 times when I first read it. Then lo and behold at Party 2/4 a very similar situation come up.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button calls.

OK, I've flopped top pair weak kicker, but also a back door straight and flush draw. I remembered that this similar to the example in the book. So I checked and waited to see how everyone behind me acted. And just like the example in the book the button bets out. The small blind folds so I'm the first to act after the bettor. Like in the example in the book I check-raise to make it 2 bets to any weak draws out there that might have called. And lo and behold everyone folds and the bettor just called. Now I'm head to head with the button. I'm probably outkicked by the button but raising has greatly increased my chances of winning by knocking out the rest of the field.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

The turn card, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, is a great card for me as I now pick-up a straight flush draw. I was planning to check the turn but since that card gave me fantastic draws I decided to bet out.

River: (7.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

At this point I decide to check-call my TPWK since my draws didn't come in. I figure I'll save myself from a being raised. But if he bets his busted draw then I can snap off his bluff.

Question:
1. From the results it seems that the check-raise was effective in knocking everyone out. Was this a proper application of the concept?
2. If there was a bet and calls from middle position should I have folded?
3. Did I play the turn correctly? Should I have gone for another check-raise?
4. What should I have done if a blank hit the turn? bet or check-call?
5. Should I have bet the river?

I'll post what the button had later.

I greatly appreciate any comments as this was one of the concepts from the book that I had difficulty wrapping my mind around.

[me454555]

bet the turn almost regardless of what comes. He could have been betting overcards like QJ/KJ that he was too afraid to raise pf. he could be betting a pp like 99/88 or worse. He could be betting middle pair.

I like the river check in hopes of snapping off a busted draw but I have trouble playing the river when oop.

Well played

[MicroBob]

C/R'ing the flop AND THEN trying to C/R the turn would be silly.


you should not be giving any credit to your back-door flush draw on the flop. you have a SIX....this is not a draw.


when the 4h comes on the turn i am not thinking that this is a great card. i'm curious if my opponent has 2 hearts.


this is the 2nd time in the past couple of days i have seen a post on here where someone thought their single low card combined with a 2-suit on the board counts as a solid backdoor flush-draw.

Ed does a pretty good job of explaining that you need to consider the liklihood of your draw actually winning.
it can't be any more obvious that you would be pretty lucky to win in the event that two more hearts came.

i don't understand why this strange mistake keeps coming up in different posts.

to reiterate, the card that you have in the flush-suit is a SIX!!

after you have it heads-up and another heart comes on the turn AND he just checks i think there is a shot he is staying in with a high-heart, a shot he has a T with a better kicker, and also chances that he has a lower pair or is slow-playing a made flush

..... 2 of the 9 remaining hearts give you a straight-flush so those outs are obviously legitimate.
but the 7 other hearts that 'make your flush' aren't exactly worth breathing a sigh of relief over.
with only one opponent left there are decent chances that he doesn't have a heart. but it certainly isn't a lock, even against just 1 opponent.
if you had a Q or K i would be a bit more comfortable with another heart....but not excessively so.

also - notice that if you hit your straight (with a non-heart) you can still easily be behind to his flush if he has one, or you might just split the pot if he also has a 6.

[Trix]

Bet the river.