Greg refuses to shake his hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

jwvdcw

08-24-2004, 11:00 PM

Yeah I guess theres two sides to every tail. I saw it as one guy joking around and having fun, then when he realized that he was out of line, he immediately apologized saying, 'Hey you know I'm only joking man, no hard feelings.' Then the other guy holds a grudge and refuses to shake his hand.

As I said in my first post, with tv editing being the way it is, I definitely won't hold it against either player in any way. Thats just how I perceived it. And yeah, since Greg is so popular around here, I expect everyone to see it the way you did as well.

Anyway, not really a big deal. Entertaining tv if you ask me.

-Syk-

08-24-2004, 11:02 PM

Smh.

Schneids

08-24-2004, 11:05 PM

All I know is I wouldn't have shaken Matusow's hand either after hearing that tirade after getting bluffed out of a pot.

To me it seemed a little much to be just joking around.

jwvdcw

08-24-2004, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Smh.

[/ QUOTE ]

What means this?

nolanfan34

08-24-2004, 11:07 PM

I would laugh it off too in Greg's spot....until testicles are mentioned. Over the line Matusow!

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

West

08-24-2004, 11:10 PM

Most people really enjoy it when someone is joking around and having fun while doing their best to make them feel like a complete piece of sh!t in the process. That was seriously low class.

uuDevil

08-24-2004, 11:13 PM

From Urban dictionary: SMH= Shaking My Head (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=smh&r=f)

-Syk-

08-24-2004, 11:22 PM

The last 3 replies are all on point. Not counting this one. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Richard Tanner

08-24-2004, 11:26 PM

While I'm sure Greg was pissed at the time, imagine what would be going on if he had shoke his hand. Everyone would be on his side and calling Madasow a total ass and Greg a total class act for not only taking his abuse but also shaking his hand about it. Wow think about that for five minutes then realize you've got better [censored] to do.

Cody

fsuplayer

08-24-2004, 11:26 PM

From the first time I saw Matasow on TV, I thought he looked like a degenerate piece of sh!t.

Tv appearances since have only served to confirm that initial impression.

I wouldnt give that guy the time of day.

fsuplayer

Rooster71

08-24-2004, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From the first time I saw Matasow on TV, I thought he looked like a degenerate piece of sh!t.

Tv appearances since have only served to confirm that initial impression.

I wouldnt give that guy the time of day.

fsuplayer

[/ QUOTE ]
Matusow is a total jack*ss. I wouldn't shake his hand and I wouldn't be concerned about people thinking I am not a "class act" for not shaking his hand. The way Matusow acts, I'm sure alot of people refuse to shake his hand.

JTrout

08-24-2004, 11:47 PM

One thing that Greg and "the mouth" Matasow have in common is that neither of them is concerned about being "a class act."

Greg isn't concerned because he consistently carries himself in such a manner that it is never brought to question.

Mike obviously isn't concerned because he consistently acts in such a manner that shows he holds no value in it.

NLfool

08-24-2004, 11:56 PM

man there is joking around and then there is demeaning malicious type acting around. If you fancy yourself anykind of a poker player and can't read the tone Mike was giving off you are not a good poker player.

No one in his right mind would shake his hand after that. His tone and actions was the worst I've seen in televised poker. Now if you see Deeb eventhough he swears ever other word he's a good natured guy, something Mike is not.

brassnuts

08-25-2004, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I saw it as one guy joking around and having fun, then when he realized that he was out of line, he immediately apologized saying, 'Hey you know I'm only joking man, no hard feelings.'

[/ QUOTE ]

You read it wrong. Matusow was being an a-hole, plain and simple. He was still condescending as he 'apologized.'

Jas3774

08-25-2004, 12:29 AM

From all I have seen of "the mouth" mike matusow, I would like to punch him square in "the mouth". What a classless fool.

Hiding

08-25-2004, 01:05 AM

I wouldn't have shook his hand either. He was an ass, and trying to be an ass. But, seeing Gregg sit there with those glasses on staring at the guy while he goes on his tirade was priceless.

TxSteve

08-25-2004, 01:05 AM

Without knowing what happens to the mouth...i'm assuming he chernobyl'd soon after and dropped all his chips.

I'm hoping someone will tell me that Greg was the one who took them.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
From the first time I saw Matasow on TV, I thought he looked like a degenerate piece of sh!t.

Tv appearances since have only served to confirm that initial impression.

I wouldnt give that guy the time of day.

fsuplayer

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess part of the reason I'm not as 'outraged' as most is that I don't have any preconceived ill-will toward him. I've seen him play a few times before, but as I said, I rarely hold tv showings against anyone, so whatever he did before, I didn't hold against him.

ArchAngel71857

08-25-2004, 01:10 AM

I want to know what he wrote in his book.

was it "Shhhhhhh, I'm counting your chips?"

-AA

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
While I'm sure Greg was pissed at the time, imagine what would be going on if he had shoke his hand. Everyone would be on his side and calling Madasow a total ass and Greg a total class act for not only taking his abuse but also shaking his hand about it. Wow think about that for five minutes then realize you've got better [censored] to do.

Cody

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this totally. I'm not defending Mike's behavior, but it would've shown tons of class to shake his hand after that. Personally, I would've shook his hand....but not due to wanting to be classy. I would've shook his hand to show him that hes not getting inside my head at all and that I'm still cool and calm. I think that there is obvious some type of strategy behind Mike's berating other players. And the best way to counterattack it is to just laugh it off and show him that its not affecting you in any way.

Cornbread Maxwell

08-25-2004, 01:22 AM

Greg is laughing all the way to the bank on this one.

Matusow is an arrogant jackass and was way out of line there. Perhaps if he directed a little more attention on his game and less on berating the other (classier) players, he'd make a final table once in a while.

I was at the WSOP this year just watching the action, and was around when Matusow took a sick beat (he had AK vs AQ allin, with a 4 flush to boot on the flop, and a Q came on the river for his opponent to cripple him). He started going crazy, but it definitely was a case of the poker gods striking down if I've ever seen one.

slogger

08-25-2004, 01:37 AM

You completely missed what was happening here. Early in the tirade, Matusow screams, "you're not playing with little kids here buddy," as if he's talking to some idiot on the street. He goes on to beat his chest and proclaim his superior manhood, while belittling Greg. He then comes to the rare moment where he realizes what a jackass he's being and takes the opportunity to offer up a condescending and disingenuous apology, while still snickering at Greg with his lacky buddy like they're sharing some private joke at Greg's expense.

Matusow is lucky that Greg is (by all accounts I've been privy to) a complete gentlemen, because more than a few people that frequent poker rooms would've put that idiot on his a** right then and there.

The4thFilm

08-25-2004, 01:46 AM

I think we need to think of the bright side, chaos theory tells us Greg wouldn't have won otherwise.

dm34

08-25-2004, 01:53 AM

Shaking his hand is basically saying "yes, you can insult me and be an ass and I will take it and do nothing." It condones what he just did and would have made Greg look weak. He did the right thing.

TwoNiner

08-25-2004, 02:11 AM

Only the biggest of pussies would have shaken Matesow's hand in that situation (no offense to those earlier in the thread, I doubt you would have done it in real life either.) I doubt I would have thrown down right there, but I definitely would have invited "the mouth" to meet after the event was over. Can't wait to see Raymer bust him out.

Mikey

08-25-2004, 02:56 AM

in Mattasow's defense....

sometimes you have to talk it up if you can get into someones head if that person is standing between you and
$5 million.

I get so tired of when others get mad when someone talks junk at the table. If it effects your play or you even allow it to effect you emotionally at the table then that is just another part of the game you have to improve.

You'll see what I mean when you watch WPT when Sunar Surindar wins it. I read in CPM that some guy was talking junk to him all game (tony d. if I'm not mistaken) and Sunar wasn't effected once.

Stop crying about edict and poker edict at the table, if some WCP is sitting at the table and the guy next to me is taunting him all day long laughing and talking garbage, I'll love it especially if it even causes him ONCE to misplay a hand.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 03:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You completely missed what was happening here. Early in the tirade, Matusow screams, "you're not playing with little kids here buddy," as if he's talking to some idiot on the street. He goes on to beat his chest and proclaim his superior manhood, while belittling Greg. He then comes to the rare moment where he realizes what a jackass he's being and takes the opportunity to offer up a condescending and disingenuous apology, while still snickering at Greg with his lacky buddy like they're sharing some private joke at Greg's expense.

Matusow is lucky that Greg is (by all accounts I've been privy to) a complete gentlemen, because more than a few people that frequent poker rooms would've put that idiot on his a** right then and there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't decide whether to believe you or not because you are clearly biased. You claim that it was a 'rare moment' where he realized he was wrong, but then you say that the apology was disingeniuos. So which is it? Did he truly realize he was out of line or was he just being fake? To me, it looked like an honest apology. Not like a 'hey man I'm so sorry.' But more of a 'Hey buddy, you know I'm just trying to do this to throw you off your game...don't take it personal man.'

trillig

08-25-2004, 03:07 AM

Mike is nicknamed: MOUTH

That is him, always...

LOL!

He's a cool guy other than that.

He likes that nickname btw, I asked him...

-Bri

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 03:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in Mattasow's defense....

sometimes you have to talk it up if you can get into someones head if that person is standing between you and
$5 million.

I get so tired of when others get mad when someone talks junk at the table. If it effects your play or you even allow it to effect you emotionally at the table then that is just another part of the game you have to improve.

You'll see what I mean when you watch WPT when Sunar Surindar wins it. I read in CPM that some guy was talking junk to him all game (tony d. if I'm not mistaken) and Sunar wasn't effected once.

Stop crying about edict and poker edict at the table, if some WCP is sitting at the table and the guy next to me is taunting him all day long laughing and talking garbage, I'll love it especially if it even causes him ONCE to misplay a hand.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more with this. I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win. I do think that after you are busted or someone else is busted, then you should be classy towards him/her because the battle is over between you two. Although, you could argue that you want to piss them off to plant a seed for the next time you play them.

mikech

08-25-2004, 03:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is verbal abuse "within the rules"? Is saying your opponent has small testicles acceptable at the poker table? You're categorizing this sort of behavior as mere gamesmanship? Admittedly I have no idea if the WSOP had any rules regarding this, but I certainly don't think it should be condoned at the tournament that crowns the "world champion."

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is verbal abuse "within the rules"? Is saying your opponent has small testicles acceptable at the poker table? You're categorizing this sort of behavior as mere gamesmanship? Admittedly I have no idea if the WSOP had any rules regarding this, but I certainly don't think it should be condoned at the tournament that crowns the "world champion."

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see any WSOP officials take action when he did that, so I'd say no, its not against the rules.

siccjay

08-25-2004, 04:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

He likes that nickname btw, I asked him...

-Bri

[/ QUOTE ]

WELL CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Smasharoo

08-25-2004, 05:17 AM

No "Rainman" jokes about writing in the little notebook from Chad? I'm amazed.

"Mike was very mean to me. Serious insult, very serious."

Boris

08-25-2004, 05:27 AM

Greg handled it in the best possible way. Anyone who shakes Matusow's hand after that crap is 110% sissy. I hope Greg busted him out of the tournament.

3rdEye

08-25-2004, 05:31 AM

Matusow was belittling Raymer like a dick. Kudos to Greg for not shaking his hand. All Matusow wanted was for Greg to shake his hand so he wouldn't feel like the chode he is.

Props, Raymer. Of course, winning the Big One was the best slap in Matusow's face you could've given him.

vulturesrow

08-25-2004, 07:37 AM

ACtually Chad said "Raymer is writing in his notebook, seat number 1 is a jerk!"

BeerMoney

08-25-2004, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is verbal abuse "within the rules"? Is saying your opponent has small testicles acceptable at the poker table? You're categorizing this sort of behavior as mere gamesmanship? Admittedly I have no idea if the WSOP had any rules regarding this, but I certainly don't think it should be condoned at the tournament that crowns the "world champion."

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see any WSOP officials take action when he did that, so I'd say no, its not against the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, so if you're wife girlfriend whatever has a fat-ass, I can say crap to you about it, and you'll be cool with it, cause its not against the rules? Or, you'll let me take any other cheap shot since its not against the poker rules?

At some point you have to live with yourself..

Matusow will have to live with the fact that everyone watching saw him get out of line and act like a donkey.

Greg would have had to live with himself if he shook his hand. He didn't want to, so he didn't.

The funny thing is, Matusow ended up looking like the one without balls, while Greg had all of the balls cause he did what he wanted too and stood up for himself.

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

West

08-25-2004, 09:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in Mattasow's defense....

sometimes you have to talk it up if you can get into someones head if that person is standing between you and
$5 million.

I get so tired of when others get mad when someone talks junk at the table. If it effects your play or you even allow it to effect you emotionally at the table then that is just another part of the game you have to improve.

You'll see what I mean when you watch WPT when Sunar Surindar wins it. I read in CPM that some guy was talking junk to him all game (tony d. if I'm not mistaken) and Sunar wasn't effected once.

Stop crying about edict and poker edict at the table, if some WCP is sitting at the table and the guy next to me is taunting him all day long laughing and talking garbage, I'll love it especially if it even causes him ONCE to misplay a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Couldn't agree more with this. I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win. I do think that after you are busted or someone else is busted, then you should be classy towards him/her because the battle is over between you two. Although, you could argue that you want to piss them off to plant a seed for the next time you play them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree less with this. IMO, this is actually one of the problems with our society. Too many people would rather win or succeed any way they can, and honor is for losers apparently. Grow up.

To me, this is completely incidental, but I've heard it suggested (I think in a book, can't remember which one) that when an opponent is pissed at you in NL poker, it creates difficulty for you in reading them - did they just go over the top of you because they have a hand, or just because they're pissed at you?

Raiser

08-25-2004, 09:46 AM

SpiderMnkE

08-25-2004, 10:07 AM

Greg definitely should NOT have shaken his hand. At that point Mouth was still being a complete a s s... he wanted Raymer to shake his hand, because it would just be another way to make Raymer his bitch.

Greg correctly took this action for what it was and refused to shake his hand. He showed class by avoiding a verbal confrontation. He would've shown weakness by accepting the fake apology.

I've seen this situation many times growing up. Bully makes fun of dork, belittles the hell out of him, then apologizes and shakes his hand. This just makes the dork look even dorkier... as if he wants friendship from the dude who just made fun of him.

Greg is no dork. Greg is also ten times the player that Matusow is. Greg knows this, Mouth doesn't. Greg knows that by keeping his cool, Mouth will look like a moron in the end.

It would be like the bully picking on the state wrestling champ... only to find out a week later that he was lucky as hell he didn't get his ass beat to a pulp...

Fitz

08-25-2004, 10:14 AM

It's especially entertaining because we all know in the end the mouthy guy ends up on the rail, and the guy in the weird glasses ends up with the 5 mil.

Good luck all,

Fitz

Bernas

08-25-2004, 10:14 AM

At what point do you draw the line. The problem with Poker has been the abuse of dealers and the abuse of players.
It has been my experience that the biggest trash talkers are usually the worst players. Mike Caro says you never want piss of your opponents. You can get more money out of them if they like you.

I expect to see the rules changed if this is considered within the rules. They are cleaning up Poker's image and I expect this not to be tolerated in the near future.

DemonDeac Holding Rockets

08-25-2004, 10:30 AM

I wannna know what Greg wrote in his notebook other than, like Norman Chad said, "Seat #1 is a jerk."

MaxPower

08-25-2004, 10:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Greg definitely should NOT have shaken his hand. At that point Mouth was still being a complete a s s... he wanted Raymer to shake his hand, because it would just be another way to make Raymer his bitch.

Greg correctly took this action for what it was and refused to shake his hand. He showed class by avoiding a verbal confrontation. He would've shown weakness by accepting the fake apology.

I've seen this situation many times growing up. Bully makes fun of dork, belittles the hell out of him, then apologizes and shakes his hand. This just makes the dork look even dorkier... as if he wants friendship from the dude who just made fun of him.

Greg is no dork. Greg is also ten times the player that Matusow is. Greg knows this, Mouth doesn't. Greg knows that by keeping his cool, Mouth will look like a moron in the end.

It would be like the bully picking on the state wrestling champ... only to find out a week later that he was lucky as hell he didn't get his ass beat to a pulp...

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

He should not be apologizing to Greg. If he wants to be a good guy he should act like one, not act like a schmuck and then offer a disingenous apology.

Greg did the right thing.

Rushmore

08-25-2004, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't decide whether to believe you or not because you are clearly biased. You claim that it was a 'rare moment' where he realized he was wrong, but then you say that the apology was disingeniuos. So which is it? Did he truly realize he was out of line or was he just being fake? To me, it looked like an honest apology. Not like a 'hey man I'm so sorry.' But more of a 'Hey buddy, you know I'm just trying to do this to throw you off your game...don't take it personal man.'

[/ QUOTE ]

There IS no "sincere apology" from such a prick.

The fake apology handshake offered is designed to further belittle. Matusow knows full well that Raymer would appear even more defeated had he accepted his handshake.

I happen to know a little about this, having, in my shady past, hung out with some serious thugs and bullies and the such.

Matusow simply took a shot at magnifying what he thought was his bullying of Raymer.

I mean, most people want to avoid conflict. Once conflict has begun, most people want to end conflict, even at the expense of their dignity.

Matusow knows this, and simply tried to further "debase" Raymer by trying to make him look like a chump, on top of looking like a weak player.

I was genuinely happy that Raymer didn't take the bait. I really thought he might, because it's human nature to do so.

Rushmore

08-25-2004, 11:06 AM

Officer Farva

08-25-2004, 11:07 AM

Yea, it would be great if ol' Fossilman himself would give us some commentary. Where are you at, Greg? You know this forum is going to heat up now that they're airing your episodes...

BeerMoney

08-25-2004, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wannna know what Greg wrote in his notebook other than, like Norman Chad said, "Seat #1 is a jerk."

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the Greg writing in his book part was kinda gay.

Rushmore

08-25-2004, 11:29 AM

You are so absolutely correct, Beer.

P.S. One thing I was thinking about afterwards, knowing how things came out, was the suffering Matusow must have gone through waiting for the telecast to come up.

Even a prick like him has GOT to know just how abjectly imbecilic and punk'd he came off.

I hope his mom comforted him with some nice warm cocoa.

adios

08-25-2004, 11:42 AM

When Matusow offers the handshake it's decision time for Greg and the course of action Greg takes should be an EV based decision not an emotional one. Matusow was obnoxious but at the poker table that's not a rare thing at all so the thing to do is make an EV based decision IMO. If you shake the guy's hand perhaps he'll think you're not sore at him and you take advantage of that somehow. If you don't shake his hand there may be ways to exploit how he now feels about you.

JARID

08-25-2004, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shaking his hand is basically saying "yes, you can insult me and be an ass and I will take it and do nothing." It condones what he just did and would have made Greg look weak. He did the right thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree completely. A handshake means, "I'm a tard, please stop picking on me." Raymer's action indicates, "you're an ass clown and this ain't over by a long shot", or something like that.

-Jarid

slogger

08-25-2004, 11:54 AM

I don't have to say it's against the rules to say that I don't like it. You can say what you want about strategiacally trying to get in someone's head, but that's not what I witnessed here (granted, all I saw was the 20-30 second TV clip that the rest of you saw).

What I saw was a hot head pro who is downright famous for his meltdowns losing control of himself after playing back against a guy (greg) who had likely be pounding him with raises and reraises all day long. From reports about how Raymer played throughout this tournament, it seems likely that he was running over the table and snapping Matusow off every time he tried to take control.

Then, Matusow breaks though for a decent pot, and can't contain his glee that he had finally hit back.

Unlike what some others have perceived, the bully in this little drama was not Matusow. Matusow is the little punk who is much better at talkin' crap than backing it up. As I'm sure all of of have experienced, god forbid one of these little rats claims an actual victory - we never hear the end of it.

ohkanada

08-25-2004, 12:05 PM

From JohnnyD (former 2+2er) on RGP:

There's a little history between the two. In the 2000 Tournament of Champions, Mike and Greg were on the same table ( I was also on that table). During an Omaha8 round Mike started playing every hand, raising every bet. He was loud and obnoxious. He got very lucky hand after hand and eventually busted Greg. Mike made some comment about Greg's play as Greg left the table. I don't remember the hand, but I do remember that based on the fact that Mike was playing like a maniac, that Greg made the right play. He just
got unlucky.

I'm pretty sure that Greg still remembers that day and how Mike acted. And I'm willing to bet that Greg thought about that day four years ago when Mike was making a fool of himself. I think that's part of the reason Greg didn't
shake his hand.

Ken

TriGonzo

08-25-2004, 12:20 PM

What was hysterical was the as Mat the Mouth was going off, Greg opens his book and writes something.......classic.

SpiderMnkE

08-25-2004, 01:00 PM

That was definately some funny chit!

I need to get a little book

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is verbal abuse "within the rules"? Is saying your opponent has small testicles acceptable at the poker table? You're categorizing this sort of behavior as mere gamesmanship? Admittedly I have no idea if the WSOP had any rules regarding this, but I certainly don't think it should be condoned at the tournament that crowns the "world champion."

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see any WSOP officials take action when he did that, so I'd say no, its not against the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, so if you're wife girlfriend whatever has a fat-ass, I can say crap to you about it, and you'll be cool with it, cause its not against the rules? Or, you'll let me take any other cheap shot since its not against the poker rules?

At some point you have to live with yourself..

Matusow will have to live with the fact that everyone watching saw him get out of line and act like a donkey.

Greg would have had to live with himself if he shook his hand. He didn't want to, so he didn't.

The funny thing is, Matusow ended up looking like the one without balls, while Greg had all of the balls cause he did what he wanted too and stood up for himself.

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If something is offensive, then it should be against the rules. Otherwise, its all fair game in my book.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally remember that, and I respect the hell out of that guy who did the right thing even when his emotions told him not to.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree less with this. IMO, this is actually one of the problems with our society. Too many people would rather win or succeed any way they can, and honor is for losers apparently. Grow up.

To me, this is completely incidental, but I've heard it suggested (I think in a book, can't remember which one) that when an opponent is pissed at you in NL poker, it creates difficulty for you in reading them - did they just go over the top of you because they have a hand, or just because they're pissed at you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on...honor? How much trash talk do you think there is in the NFL or NBA? Theres tons! Stuff much more offensive than what you heard from Matusow. Honor is giving your all 'on the court' but then being a gentleman off of it.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:15 PM

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Greg definitely should NOT have shaken his hand. At that point Mouth was still being a complete a s s... he wanted Raymer to shake his hand, because it would just be another way to make Raymer his bitch.

Greg correctly took this action for what it was and refused to shake his hand. He showed class by avoiding a verbal confrontation. He would've shown weakness by accepting the fake apology.

I've seen this situation many times growing up. Bully makes fun of dork, belittles the hell out of him, then apologizes and shakes his hand. This just makes the dork look even dorkier... as if he wants friendship from the dude who just made fun of him.

Greg is no dork. Greg is also ten times the player that Matusow is. Greg knows this, Mouth doesn't. Greg knows that by keeping his cool, Mouth will look like a moron in the end.

It would be like the bully picking on the state wrestling champ... only to find out a week later that he was lucky as hell he didn't get his ass beat to a pulp...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you guys are kinda showing me the other side, and I see your points. All in all, like I said, its not a big deal to me either way. Perhaps you all are right.

Btw...you saw that a lot growing up?? Where? I always saw bullies beating the hell out of dorks, and then beating them up again the next day. Never saw any apologies.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wannna know what Greg wrote in his notebook other than, like Norman Chad said, "Seat #1 is a jerk."

[/ QUOTE ]

Great big Lebowski-esque moment would be if ESPN announcers keep wondering what Greg's writing in his notebook, then after he wins, the camera finally zooms in, only to reveal that he was drawing a man with a very large penis.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When Matusow offers the handshake it's decision time for Greg and the course of action Greg takes should be an EV based decision not an emotional one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. At first, I thought that he should've shaked his hand based on this. But now some of you are convincing me otherwise.

toots

08-25-2004, 02:30 PM

You know, anytime you hear someone start talking about "honor," you can be pretty sure that something really stupid is about to happen.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have to say it's against the rules to say that I don't like it. You can say what you want about strategiacally trying to get in someone's head, but that's not what I witnessed here (granted, all I saw was the 20-30 second TV clip that the rest of you saw).

What I saw was a hot head pro who is downright famous for his meltdowns losing control of himself after playing back against a guy (greg) who had likely be pounding him with raises and reraises all day long. From reports about how Raymer played throughout this tournament, it seems likely that he was running over the table and snapping Matusow off every time he tried to take control.

Then, Matusow breaks though for a decent pot, and can't contain his glee that he had finally hit back.

Unlike what some others have perceived, the bully in this little drama was not Matusow. Matusow is the little punk who is much better at talkin' crap than backing it up. As I'm sure all of of have experienced, god forbid one of these little rats claims an actual victory - we never hear the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This analysis makes a lot of sense. Perhaps I was giving Matusow too much credit. Perhaps he wasn't trying to negatively affect Greg's play; Rather, he just couldn't control himself, in which case I feel bad for him.

West

08-25-2004, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Come on...honor? How much trash talk do you think there is in the NFL or NBA? Theres tons! Stuff much more offensive than what you heard from Matusow. Honor is giving your all 'on the court' but then being a gentleman off of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the NFL or the NBA we're talking about. Matusow was acting like a low class prick. Doesn't sound like it was the first time either.

dana33

08-25-2004, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally remember that, and I respect the hell out of that guy who did the right thing even when his emotions told him not to.

[/ QUOTE ]
The right thing was to not shake his hand (in both this case and Greg's case). Justice demands treating people according to what they deserve. If you treat a total prick the same as you treat a decent guy, then you embolden the pricks of the world and undercut the decent guys of the world.

Abagadro

08-25-2004, 04:26 PM

Norman's comment on that was classic too:

"He must be writing: Seat 1 is a jerk."

MicroBob

08-25-2004, 04:44 PM

as i said in another thread...i don't know how much it crossed whatever line is set in the rules.
but if i were fortunate enough to play in the WSOP (or some smaller tourney) i would familiarize myself with the rules and if i think some jerk-off crossed the line i would call the tourney-director over and ask the jerk-off if he would like to repeat what he just said.

yes, i guess that makes me a tattle-tale.
but if it means the jerk-off has to take a 20-minute time-out while he gets blinded away some then i'm all for turning him in.
if it means he just gets a warning i think that could be potentially tilt-inducing too.

just refusing to shake his hand allowed Mike to say something sarcastic like 'oh.....he's really hurt.....oh....too bad' or whatever the hell it was he said.

turning him in could really mess him up imo.
and i would get to act all smug about it.

i only saw the incident once (will see it again in many re-runs) and couldn't really tell what he was saying because so much was bleeped out.
imo, he probably crossed the line by being THAT vulgar...not to mention the whole 'cahones' thing.

js13_tps

08-25-2004, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Matusow was acting like a low class prick.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he was acting.......

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Come on...honor? How much trash talk do you think there is in the NFL or NBA? Theres tons! Stuff much more offensive than what you heard from Matusow. Honor is giving your all 'on the court' but then being a gentleman off of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the NFL or the NBA we're talking about. Matusow was acting like a low class prick. Doesn't sound like it was the first time either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, this is a mental game as opposed to a physical game, which means that trash talk comes into play even more imo.

jwvdcw

08-25-2004, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally remember that, and I respect the hell out of that guy who did the right thing even when his emotions told him not to.

[/ QUOTE ]
The right thing was to not shake his hand (in both this case and Greg's case). Justice demands treating people according to what they deserve. If you treat a total prick the same as you treat a decent guy, then you embolden the pricks of the world and undercut the decent guys of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where on earth did you hear that? I'm not trying to turn this into a religious thread, but nearly every religion preaches to treat your enemies nicely. A verse from the bible that accurately sums up the situation(I'm totally paraphrasing here: "Anyone can act nice towards their friends. It takes a true moral man to treat his enemies well."

Myrtle

08-25-2004, 09:16 PM

Let me not put words in Greg's book, but I betcha it reads something like.....

"semi-bluff rr with underpair to a rag board"........

FWIW, I agree with the non-handshake reaction. IMO to shake a persons hand after that type of behavior does nothing other than to validate bad behavior.

I don't know Matusow, but it appears to be pretty well documented that this type of bs is not below his dignity.

I do know Greg, and I can tell you that that although he may find that type of behavior offensive, it would not alter his game........

ligastar

08-25-2004, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ] Justice demands treating people according to what they deserve. If you treat a total prick the same as you treat a decent guy, then you embolden the pricks of the world and undercut the decent guys of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN TO THIS

poboy

08-25-2004, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
funny sequence. Greg kinda came off looking like an old prude. But obviously with all of the tv editing, we don't know how long Madisaw(sure I spelled it wrong) was acting like an ass before that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly posted this on the wrong forum, perhaps you didn't notice but everyone around here is in worship of Greg. I agree with you though, I thought he came off looking weak. It takes a much stronger man to shake someone's hand in that situation than it does to shine him on. Not to mention the look on Greg's face, I thought he was going to start crying. I say give him a good firm(read bone-crushing) handshake and than proceed to take all his chips. All the while making little references to Matusow's little tirade. Don't get me wrong I think Matusow is a complete [censored], probably has small balls too(usually people who talk about how big theirs is are lying). I just think Greg handled it all wrong.

Sloats

08-25-2004, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is verbal abuse "within the rules"? Is saying your opponent has small testicles acceptable at the poker table? You're categorizing this sort of behavior as mere gamesmanship? Admittedly I have no idea if the WSOP had any rules regarding this, but I certainly don't think it should be condoned at the tournament that crowns the "world champion."

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see any WSOP officials take action when he did that, so I'd say no, its not against the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, so if you're wife girlfriend whatever has a fat-ass, I can say crap to you about it, and you'll be cool with it, cause its not against the rules? Or, you'll let me take any other cheap shot since its not against the poker rules?

At some point you have to live with yourself..

Matusow will have to live with the fact that everyone watching saw him get out of line and act like a donkey.

Greg would have had to live with himself if he shook his hand. He didn't want to, so he didn't.

The funny thing is, Matusow ended up looking like the one without balls, while Greg had all of the balls cause he did what he wanted too and stood up for himself.

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darren McCarty.

And the whole 'in the rules' thing makes me think of the 1976 Summit Series when the Russians weren't even planning on forfit a hockey game against the Flyers because Bobby Clarke broke a skater's ankle. This lead Don Cherry to say "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough." I'm sorry, but I respect professionals who act with class, dignity, respect, and ethics, whether they be professional athletes, poker players, of businessmen. I have no room for the arrogant and classless.

It is the journey that makes the trip worthwhile, not the destination.

MrG

08-25-2004, 10:31 PM

Greg should have asked Matusow to step outside and punched him in the face, or at least asked Sam Grizzle to do it. The appropriate response was violence. Sorry, but violence is effective, satisfying, and the American way.
While winning five million is great, think what winning five million AND breaking Matusow's nose would be like.

lastchance

08-25-2004, 10:39 PM

In the end, Greg Raymer has all of Matusow's chips and $5 million dollars, and that's the bottom line. Greg took it Matusow, and no matter what, Mike Matusow would love to be Greg Raymer right then and there.

jwvdcw

08-26-2004, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ] Justice demands treating people according to what they deserve. If you treat a total prick the same as you treat a decent guy, then you embolden the pricks of the world and undercut the decent guys of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN TO THIS

[/ QUOTE ]

Love demands to treat all people in a loving way. I'd rather base my life around the virtue of love, similar to say a Martin Luther King, Jesus, Ghandi, etc.

jwvdcw

08-26-2004, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
funny sequence. Greg kinda came off looking like an old prude. But obviously with all of the tv editing, we don't know how long Madisaw(sure I spelled it wrong) was acting like an ass before that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly posted this on the wrong forum, perhaps you didn't notice but everyone around here is in worship of Greg. I agree with you though, I thought he came off looking weak. It takes a much stronger man to shake someone's hand in that situation than it does to shine him on. Not to mention the look on Greg's face, I thought he was going to start crying. I say give him a good firm(read bone-crushing) handshake and than proceed to take all his chips. All the while making little references to Matusow's little tirade. Don't get me wrong I think Matusow is a complete [censored], probably has small balls too(usually people who talk about how big theirs is are lying). I just think Greg handled it all wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said initially, I can't fault anyone for their actions on tv. You're playing for 10+hours/day so you're tired and you have so much going on. I didn't mean to offend the 'Greg worshipers' here.

jwvdcw

08-26-2004, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
and the American way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't argue that, but I will say that makes me sad to be American.

BarronVangorToth

08-26-2004, 01:10 AM

I believe he was completely right to NOT shake his hand after that rude treatment. As someone says above, it was uncalled for, even if "kidding" and to shake his hand after is definitely something he isn't forced to do after that treatment.

Also, while I won't claim in any way to be a friend of his, I have had a couple of dealings with him at Foxwoods and he has never been anything but a nice guy. Likewise, the same can be said for a number of my friends who can say much the same.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

TriGonzo

08-26-2004, 04:41 PM

For those that are wondering if Greg takes out Matusow later in the tourney;

From the PokerStars coverage of the 2004 WSOP:

http://www.pokerstars.com/2004wsop/day4.html

With the chip leader only at 800,000 all of our players are still in action for the $5 million first prize.

As always there are stories. Greg 'Fossilman' Raymer relishes telling how he crippled Mike Matusow with the A J of Diamonds. Mike called an all-in bet by Greg with a pair of 9's on the flop. FossilMan had made his move when two diamonds flopped. The board came running diamonds to leave Matusow temporarily speechless.

TxSteve

08-26-2004, 04:56 PM

Thanks TriGonzo!!

I'm happy to hear that and CAN'T wait to see that hand.

I hope Greg whispers "did your testicles just shrink to the size of peas?"

blackaces13

08-26-2004, 06:18 PM

Good post Rushmore. I was in the OP's corner until I read what you said and now I "know" that you're right. He was offering him a handshake to make him look like an idiot NOT because he was at all sorry for being a dick. Its so clear now.

What sucks is that as I was watching it I was thinking "Why doesn't he just shake the guy's hand and be a good sport". I know I would have shaken his hand and thus have been "fooled" by that horse's ass.

Sent

08-26-2004, 07:03 PM

lol I just watched that episode and I would'nt shake his hand at all. It is funny to know who eventually got the better.

-Sent

ArchAngel71857

08-26-2004, 09:22 PM

It sounded like Matsui was making fun of Greg's glasses because he said something like "this isn't a kid's game." I don't know. I do know that Greg was the chip leader for a while, So I am wondering how many chips Greg had when Matsumoto started bragging about his steal. Whatever. Some people are into poker for the ego. Some for the money.

-AA

Slacker13

08-26-2004, 09:40 PM

What is everyone talking about here? The WSOP? If so when was it aired? Sorry but I am confused and yet interested as hell. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

fnurt

08-27-2004, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems with people doing ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING WITHIN THE RULES during the tourney if they think it'll help them win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is verbal abuse "within the rules"? Is saying your opponent has small testicles acceptable at the poker table? You're categorizing this sort of behavior as mere gamesmanship? Admittedly I have no idea if the WSOP had any rules regarding this, but I certainly don't think it should be condoned at the tournament that crowns the "world champion."

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see any WSOP officials take action when he did that, so I'd say no, its not against the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, so if you're wife girlfriend whatever has a fat-ass, I can say crap to you about it, and you'll be cool with it, cause its not against the rules? Or, you'll let me take any other cheap shot since its not against the poker rules?

At some point you have to live with yourself..

Matusow will have to live with the fact that everyone watching saw him get out of line and act like a donkey.

Greg would have had to live with himself if he shook his hand. He didn't want to, so he didn't.

The funny thing is, Matusow ended up looking like the one without balls, while Greg had all of the balls cause he did what he wanted too and stood up for himself.

Did you ever hear about the hockey player that was pissed about shaking Claude Lemieux's hand after the Stanley Cup playoffs? He was quoted as saying "I can't believe I shook that guys hand!" He was pissed cause Lemieux was cheap shotting his team all playoffs. The guy didn't have the balls to say, "Hey, it ain't cool to do that to my team, that's not the way to win." Instead he pussied out and shook his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darren McCarty.

And the whole 'in the rules' thing makes me think of the 1976 Summit Series when the Russians weren't even planning on forfit a hockey game against the Flyers because Bobby Clarke broke a skater's ankle. This lead Don Cherry to say "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough." I'm sorry, but I respect professionals who act with class, dignity, respect, and ethics, whether they be professional athletes, poker players, of businessmen. I have no room for the arrogant and classless.

It is the journey that makes the trip worthwhile, not the destination.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played cards with Darren McCarty, and let me tell you, I am quite confident that the Internet is the only place where anyone will be calling him a pussy.

nothumb

08-27-2004, 03:51 AM

Yeah, if you put Claude Lemieux and Darren McCarty in a room together only one of them would come out alive, and he wouldn't speak effin French.

The only shots Claude Lemieux takes are cheap ones. McCarty was one of the toughest enforcers I've seen and I have no doubt he laid Lemieux out a fair number of times.

Still the greatest moment in hockey history was watching Claude and Patrick Roy get their froggy asses beaten to a pulp at the same time.

NT

Trainwreck

08-27-2004, 09:00 AM

ESPN Tuesday Nights....

You call yourself a poker player? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's should now be called: The Greg Raymer Show

>TW<

MrDannimal

08-27-2004, 11:00 AM

Was? He's still playing, and enforcing.

For Darren, he did the right thing. Shake his hand, and then pummel the ever loving [censored] out of him the next time Colorado came to Detroit (in one of the greatest hockey game/fights of all time, including the goalies going at it at center ice).

The reason there was even a question about it was Lemiux's blatant cheap shot on Draper (almost, but not quite as grossas Bertuzzi this past year).

Slacker13

08-27-2004, 01:58 PM

I am blaming this whole mess on Tivo, I have like 8 WSOP events recorded in my Tivo menu and this one is not there.
It missed the Casino episode with tommy throwing up too. Yet somehow my wifes general Hospital always seems to be there, maybe this is an inside job?

fnurt

08-27-2004, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Was? He's still playing, and enforcing.

For Darren, he did the right thing. Shake his hand, and then pummel the ever loving [censored] out of him the next time Colorado came to Detroit (in one of the greatest hockey game/fights of all time, including the goalies going at it at center ice).

The reason there was even a question about it was Lemiux's blatant cheap shot on Draper (almost, but not quite as grossas Bertuzzi this past year).

[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of going completely off-topic, I'll share an anecdote. The goalie fight was a huge spectacle, with Mike Vernon kicking Patrick Roy's ass. They ran a huge color picture of Roy's bloody face in the Detroit paper the next day and it was rather gruesome, but a big hit.

I heard Vernon interviewed on a local radio show soon afterwards. The DJ heard Vernon's little girl playing in the background and asked him, "How long will it be before you let your daughter see the videotape of that fight?" Without missing a beat, Vernon replied, "I'm saving it for when she brings her first boyfriend home."

thylacine

08-27-2004, 02:45 PM

jwvdcw, it's like this:

Being NICE to NICE people is NICE.

Being NASTY to NICE people is NASTY.

BUT

Being NICE to NASTY people is NASTY.

Being NASTY to NASTY people is NICE.

curtains

08-27-2004, 04:49 PM

I saw the hand Matusow busted live, and I cant wait to see it on TV. He gets brutally bad beated, SCREAMS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO at the top of his lungs for like 30 seconds straight,....and then is literally crying for 5 minutes. I think hes in tears when they do his final interview.
It's going to be fun to watch.

MicroBob

08-27-2004, 05:37 PM

I'm not terribly surprised by this behaviour (if your account is accurate).

He just seems mentally unstable if you ask me.

I do hope the whole hand was caught by the ESPN gang and am interested to see it in the next episode.

SossMan

08-27-2004, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SCREAMS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO at the top of his lungs for like 30 seconds straight

[/ QUOTE ]

should be fun

TPR

08-27-2004, 08:29 PM

What I imagined Greg jotting down in his notebook was this: (Mike M.---loudmouthed A-hole. In need of a painfull castration. Look for an opportunity to geld!)

curtains

08-27-2004, 11:22 PM

Hey Micro, it was definitely caught by ESPN, it was on the featured table. Im sure itll be on TV, his outburst will make for great TV.

PDX_David

08-28-2004, 01:58 AM

Shaking Matasow's hand would have been the right thing to do if...

he would have jammed his hand down his pants and rearranged his sweaty junk first.

I bet they don't have a rule about that!

dakine

08-28-2004, 05:44 PM

It's too bad his outburst was "Bleeped". MMM ("Moron" Mike Matusow) finished 87th place, with $20K. Greg Raymer should present MMM the "Raymer Reamer Trophy", for not making it to the Final table. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

jdl22

08-28-2004, 06:06 PM

Something I will always remember is my 7th grade prealgebra teacher teaching us how to multiply negative numbers using this type of rule.

thylacine

08-28-2004, 07:09 PM

I guess jwvdcw didn't ever take 7th grade prealgebra.

Filip

08-28-2004, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, if you put Claude Lemieux and Darren McCarty in a room together only one of them would come out alive, and he wouldn't speak effin French.

The only shots Claude Lemieux takes are cheap ones. McCarty was one of the toughest enforcers I've seen and I have no doubt he laid Lemieux out a fair number of times.

Still the greatest moment in hockey history was watching Claude and Patrick Roy get their froggy asses beaten to a pulp at the same time.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

All ive got to say is Ulf Samuelson, AND IT AINT EVEN CLOSE!!1

MMMMMM

08-31-2004, 12:22 PM

Yes Greg did the right thing.

From this thread it appears that Greg actually has bigger balls than Matusow (who is apparently just an ass).

Gamblor

08-31-2004, 03:22 PM

This was the 1996 Conference Final series between the Colorado Avalanche and the Detroit Red Wings, in which Claude Lemieux hit Kris Draper from behind into the top of the boards at the Red Wings bench.

Draper went face first into the corner between the side facing and the top, literally crushing Draper's face with a bloody face, broken cheekbone, concussion, and broken nose.

Dino Ciccarelli, a Red Wings' forward, later said, "I can't believe I shook his fuckin' hand."

http://www.neutralzonehockey.com/the-hit.jpg

http://www.theslot.com.br/2003/040/pix/1996_draperchecked.jpg

freakazoid

08-31-2004, 08:45 PM

I thought Madisow (sp?) looked like a complete jerk, which is clearly is. It's pretty funny that they caught him ridiculing the play of the guy who ends up winning the whole thing. It would have been insane for Raymer to shake his hand (he might have caught something)

jwvdcw

08-31-2004, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good post Rushmore. I was in the OP's corner until I read what you said and now I "know" that you're right. He was offering him a handshake to make him look like an idiot NOT because he was at all sorry for being a dick. Its so clear now.

.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not picking on you specifically because many said the same thing....but on today's episode Matusow went out of his way to again apologize and mentioned that even though HE ALREADY APOLOGIZED ONCE that he wanted to do it again. Mike said, "I was out of line. I apologize."