QJo in EP . TP runs into trouble @ Party 3/6.

[nepenthe]

Recently started 6-tabling at Party. I must say it has overall seemed more profitable thus far. The lack of individual reads is offset nicely by my increased concentration and, of course, volume of hands.

What I mean to say is that I have no particular reads for the following hand. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, nepenthe calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

I can already begin to hear echoes of "Fold preflop, yadda yadda yadda." I sometimes dump QJo in EP and sometimes play it when I feel the table textures are right and/or I just feel like playing QJo against all odds /images/graemlins/mad.gif. Deal with it /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Flop: (4.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>

What's my plan from here on, assuming the original bettor 1) folds, 2) calls, 3) reraises?

[MarkL444]

Fold preflop, yadda, yadda, yadda

[nepenthe]

Let's not turn this into another extended preflop discussion /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MAxx]

tuff question!

This is a tough spot, for obvious reasons. I am assuming Big Blind will fold, for the purpose of decision making.

I am going to take a stab... and this isnt necessarily correct, but may continue the discussion.

If I had my wits about me, I would proceed cautiously.

1) UTG folds- I am calling for one sb. You may be ahead, you maybe behind. You will have the option on turn to get away if you want to. You also have the option to limit the turn and river to one bb each. Thefore, there is a limit the amount you have to lose on later action if you choose.

2) calls- I would call one sb and hope to improve. Now the real decsion will be if UTG leads out on the turn. If he does and you have improved, you may be trapped for bettor or worse. If you do not improve on turn and when UTG leads out... I would probably want to fold to avoid the potential for a trap and risk putting down the best current or future hand. If UTG checks turn, I would check no matter what to see how many bets I am faced with when action comes back around.

3) If UTG capps, I would get away from the hand now. It feels weak to do this, I admit. However, you are risking being in a raising sandwich... and you may not be able to maximize you gains if you hand does become best.

I am looking forward to seeing how this post develops.

[nepenthe]

I must ask what hands these bettors are likely to have. I wasn't too worried about the original bettor at the time CO 3-bet, as I put him on a weaker Q, some other pair, or maybe something like a gutshot draw combined with a rr flush draw. CO, on the other hand, presents real trouble as a made nut straight is very possible on this rainbow board, in which case I'm drawing to a tie at best. He could also have something like JA or two pair. I also cannot discount 88 / 99, or even a hand like J10 (3-betting for a possible free card at the turn drawing to a straight). At this juncture, I feel I'm definitely behind but have no compelling reason to believe a 10 won't be good enough for me to win. Q might win it for me as well, although for this scenario I would rather be heads-up when it happens. If another J hits, I *could* be in real trouble. And I couldn't even begin to calculate the chances I am currently ahead and will win unimproved + chances that I'll improve and win - chances I'm behind and drawing near dead - chances I'm behind but drawing live / the overall profitability of calling CO's 3-bet.

[nepenthe]

"I wasn't too worried about the original bettor at the time CO 3-bet, as I put him on a weaker Q"
I meant to say of course "I put him on a weaker J" /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MAxx]

I would definitely be thinking same about the possible hands that I would be in trouble against. So I guess the best thing to do is think about the range of hands, like you suggest. Since no reads, I got to go with my perception of the average but not superterrible 3/6 player.

I agree that 88 and 99 would 3bet this flop to protect set. The fact that CO didnt raise pf, I would say this lessens the possiblity, but definitely does not eliminate this possiblity to a great degree.

I personally think the average 3/6 player would attempt to slowplay a flopped straight (either QT or 10-7s). I don't think that he would have a 10-7o, but of course it does happen. I feel confident enough about this that I would not fear the flopped straight at whole lot.

He could have AJ, but I doubt it b/c no pf raise- Wouldnt worry about that too much.

KJ is another real possibility, that you wouldnt want to be up against.

QJ is a real possiblilty, in which case you are tied with of course.

J-10 would 3 bet this, and could definitely get you into trouble if the queen comes. (you wouldnt like a 7 to come either)

I think that some suited jacks with worse kickers could make this play.

Some 2 pair combinations would make this 3 bet also.

So I do not know exactly what to make of my hand reading, except that IMO... you are probably behind. I do not know exactly where to go from here. I am leaning to thinking that it is worth it to see if you improve on the turn though for one bet b/c there is a good enough chance that you could improve to a better hand than whatever CO is protecting. I think the pot odds warrant calling one to see the turn.

[nepenthe]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, nepenthe calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, nepenthe calls.

BB is out of it and UTG thought for a long time before finally calling. I think I'm ahead of UTG and will see what the turn brings.

Turn: (6.66 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font> /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
UTG checks...

Bet out? Check intending to checkraise? I was almost positive at the time CO will bet here for value.

[Drscheist]

Based on the action thus far how could you put UTG on a weaker J? JT is the only jack hand i see UTG calling with that puts you ahead. The other jack hands have you outkicked or have made two pair. He might be betting out with KQ, AT, KT, lots of diff hands.
CO three bet prob indicates strong open-end draw, (KT, JT, maybe AT) or made hand better than yours (TPBetterK--made straight).
Though it might not feel right, getting out here is best bet. Your draw sucks, your hand is only OK given the action, and nearly half of the deck to come contains cards your hand doesn't like given the action.
PS I make the mistake of calling for one more SB, betting blank turn when checked to and folding to CO raise--ten bucks I could've used to take my girlfriend to Full Moon for some pizza (I know, I'm a cheap bastard).

[nepenthe]

UTG could very well be betting out with something like KQ at the flop, or Q and another pair, or simply a lower pair.

Why would you run the please-raise-me-so-I-can-fold routine at a blank turn?

[Drscheist]

Dont read my post. Your hand had me thinking too long, lol. Watch out for UTG he could easily be holding a Q like KQ (one of the reasons I thought your draw was crappy). React to his play rather than to CO's.

[Trix]

Probably fold the flop if UTG caps, call otherwise. Go for CR on the turn.

yadda yadda yadda

[Drscheist]

Why not? You need info to confirm/disconfirm your suspicion that you're already beat. Many, if not most opponents aren't going to continue to raise you with KT, AT, T9, even QJ, KJ in this spot, but all will with a two pair or better.
I defend getting out of this hand ASAP. Too often you're sandwiched b/w a strong hand and a strong draw; your hand is highly susceptible to draws and your own draw stinks--but I'm glad you hit it and I hope your hand was good. Though splitting here is now prob what you're HOPING for. Hey, I know a good way to avoid what could've, prob should've, maybe mightv'e been a waste of 4 BB's...yadda yadda. Not admonishing; do it from time to time myself; but I play very prudently post flop with hands like these.

[nepenthe]

The thing is you're advocating throwing away 1 BB for the mere confirmation that your hand isn't best. I don't like this line personally as it supports a fatalistic outlook on poker and life in general. Besides, what do you do if CO just calls? In fact if I were the CO and had a made straight, I might just call the turn if it were an offsuit blank (note: not a 10), planning to pop the river.

[MAxx]

Turn, I check- intending to checkraise CO. However, I am on standby with plan B. If CO bets, and then UTG c/r... I am not real happy... I maybe trapped... but I feel I have to call down now and that is the risk that I took- which I can live with.

[Drscheist]

You might just call the turn?...that would be creative yet silly poker having made a vulnerable straight with a QT. You know that you would raise this turn 99/100 times. What of charging your opponents (who could easily have on OESD or a two pair, set) for their draws? Easy turn raise if you're CO with a straight.
Why betting for info = fatalism? Maybe you could explain. But in these games typically people are unashamed to raise flops (like these) with a huge range of hands (from an overcard-gutshot (AQ, KQ) or OES draw to TP-or better), yet are less likely to reraise a turn bet (should they be holding a drawing hand--as it would be incorrect to do so with the likelihood that such a play would kick UTG out of the pot &gt; decreasing your pot/implied odds) without a strong made hand.
But again, I think getting out early (flop) is a viable and prudent option; just tell me that you had both your opponents beat all the way and that this is in fact what you would expect here most of the time and I'll admit the possibility that I've made a mistake on my thinking regarding your hand. Which, by the way, I thought was an excellent one to post.

[Drscheist]

So there's no confusion, my remarks are focused on the play of this hand from the flop assuming a hypothetical blank turn, not the turn ten (the best poss card for you) which makes seeing hand to the end with the second nut a must.

[nepenthe]

"Creative yet apparently silly" is actually one of my default plays in poker, like checking the river with the nuts for instance. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif I do it more often than you might think. And no, my winrate isn't suffering. /images/graemlins/grin.gif So if I had QT for the flopped straight, I'd be inclined to just call a blank turn maybe 1 out of...5 or 10 times, depending on the aggressiveness of my opposition and what hands I put them on.

And betting the turn expecting to fold to a raise still isn't anything close to full information. You're lost as to what to do if you're just called, and maniacs (remember I had no read on my opponents at the time so they could well be maniacs) can raise with as little as middle pair, a pure draw or worse. As for the fatalism comment, well...let me just give you a picturesque visual to picturesquely visualize. I picture a prisoner of war, being tortured and interrogated in a darkened enemy chamber by a chain-smoking toothless one-eyed eunuch. Eventually, unable to tolerate the inquisition any longer, the POW engages in a cataclysmic last struggle, dragging along the chair to which he is tied, with his jaws set squarely on the eunuch's massive nose fraught with pimples and other unmentionables. His jaw connects, as the olfactory pimples spurt out inside the POW's mouth, and the eunuch cries out in pain and instinctively smacks the POW in the temple, after which he, in a rage, proceeds to knock the POW senseless as the POW cries out with his last breath, "That's right, kill me you sonofabitch, KILL ME!"

This is what I picture with the raise-me-so-I-can-mercifully-fold routine.

Hey. You asked me to explain.

[Drscheist]

Creative yet apparently silly doesn't make the money playing 3/6. You're costing yourself money about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 times.
Full information? You're not going to get him to show you his cards, please. Tell me he's reraising the turn with a hand like KT, T9, T8, AT, TT, J7, KQ, AQ...I doubt it...don't underestimate your typical unk 3/6 player; that'll cost you more money than those creative slowplays that rarely pick up enough extra bets to make up for the whole pots they sometimes end up costing you. Maniacs aren't hard to find, but safe to assume your typical unk aint a maniac. Fact is if you're committed to continuing with this hand the turn bet is a solid play. A reraise almost always indicates a stronger hand than yours and a call means your hand is usually good. Don't see too many 3/6ers devious enough to continue reraising at this point to steal the pot with a weaker hand/draw.
And you never answered my question regarding whether or not you were good the whole time (but you prob won't know if CO didn't show on riv).
PS I don't recommend you read any Joseph Conrad.

[nepenthe]

"Creative yet apparently silly doesn't make the money playing 3/6. You're costing yourself money about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 times."

But it DOES make me money. Without getting into specifics, I can say unabashedly and without an iota of scientific evidence pro or con that making "creative yet apparently silly" plays occasionally has HELPED my winrate tremendously, not hindered it. I am literally "crushing" (and I don't use this term loosely) these games making these occasional, silly-looking plays. Let me explain as this may not be the case for everyone and everyone has different priorities when it comes to playing the GAME of poker. Yes, my #1 priority is to make money. I'm talking about the art of the game that contributes to making money here.

Making rote, default plays time and time again, even at a low limit game like Party 3/6, is not only predictable to opponents who may be used to seeing you day in and day out, but is also predictable to myself, and -EV for my own health of mind. You shouldn't underestimate the overall negative effect from which your game can suffer if you default yourself to absolute ennui as opposed to making creative plays every once in a while to spice things up, make the game more interesting for you personally and to keep yourself thinking and engaged. If you're talking about a particular hand in an isolated incident, sure an otherwise creative play can be -EV for that hand. But I'm talking about the holistic, long-term plan for your lucidity of mind and effectiveness / longevitiy of your game as a whole. Allowing yourself to make unpredictable plays can sharpen your mind enough to enable you to observe intuitively when your opponents are successfully making such plays themselves, or merely attempting to do same and failing miserably. This, also, is +EV in the long run as you are allowing yourself to improve your play and perception via sometimes straying off the tried and true path and experimenting.

As for this specific hand, I do see Party 3/6ers devious enough to raise with less than a very strong hand on the turn or the river. I see it every day. I also see, every day, opponents who are waiting until the river in order to "ensure" that no possible FH or flush gets there before raising for good measure. And finally, this is a minor yet personal reason: I find S&amp;G's dirty - even more so than a checkraise - if done for the purpose of desperately seeking out a reason to fold.

BTW my downfall was not Joseph Conrad; it was James Joyce. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[dumb ox]

Why checkraise on the turn, Trix?

[Drscheist]

lol. Can't argue with that my friend. Whatever works for you. We're sure to have played with each other at some point, I play 3/6 pp quite frequently and from my experience: I find few players which a.) make the mistake of thinking that a hand worse than QJ here is a good value reraise on the turn after you call a 3 bet and bet the turn; and b.) think they can get an opponent whose given as much action as you have to fold to a (bluff/semi-bluff) reraise on the turn (and risk getting reraised themselves should you have the straight). Even fewer players would play the hand this way (folding the turn to a reraise) so I don't expect even the most observant players to be considering b.) a possibility. Convincing me that if you're reraised on the turn it's as reliable an indicator as any that your QJ is behind. So I really don't agree with your application of the whole raise-me-so-I-can-fold-mercifully routine-this isn't NL. You may well have read the entire CW of James Joyce twice if you can play 6 tables and be managing all these devious calculations meanwhile.
On paper after careful consideration I think this is a rare situation where I feel even calling that last SB on the flop is borderline, but prob correct: you're getting 12-1 to hit your gutshot (though figure UTG having KQ @10% of the time making that out slightly less than squeaky clean) and there's also a real yet slim possibility that your hand is best and will hold up by the river.
But once the ten hits on the turn your plan is much clearer. I think some interesting but little needed discussion might have been wasted on hypothetical situations and English literature b/c you decided to post your hand in pieces. Now, for godsakes post the conclusion of the hand and tell me how many people you split the pot with or did UTG laugh all the way to the bank?

[bisonbison]

yadda yadda yadda.

Let's pretend this was suited and that therefore you are a sane person seeing the flop. Flop raise good. CO 3-bet scary. If UTG calls or folds, call.

If UTG caps? Let's see.

4+4(UTG's cap)+2(your raise)+4(CO will certainly call cap) = 14:2 = 7:1 = you need 6 outs for the call to be good on pot odds alone. You'll almost certainly get paid off if you spike a T on the turn, and you can pray that UTG and CO are eating up each other's redraw outs. If you trip up, you'll call to see the river, so yeah, I'd probably call and fold the turn if I didn't hit a T or J. Hitting a Q would make for an ugly time of it.

[nepenthe]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, nepenthe calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, nepenthe calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, nepenthe checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, nepenthe calls, CO calls.

I checked. I admit it. I checked. But I was pretty damn sure CO would value bet. And he did. UTG raised. Now he must have at least the Q, and may indeed have KQ. At this point I decide to call in hopes of collecting overcalls from CO. If CO were to reraise, I was going to be in for a long night. But he hesitated and just called. G00t.

River: (12.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, nepenthe calls, CO folds.

I was hoping CO would call the last bet given his strength on the flop, but no cigar.

Final Pot: 14.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.66 BB, between UTG and nepenthe.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Qh 5d (straight, queen high).
nepenthe shows Jc Qd (straight, queen high).
Outcome: UTG wins 7.33 BB. nepenthe wins 7.33 BB. </font>

Queen fricking five fricking offsuit. He really should have dumped his crap to the flop 3-bet and the pot would have been MINE, all MINE! /images/graemlins/crazy.gif Would've been interesting to see CO's hand. Oh well.

Bisonbison, I resent your implications. I am only clinically insane but NOT when it comes to poker damn you. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif That and interpreting Wordsworth's poetry.

[bisonbison]

Imagine limping an offsuit queen in EP. What the hell was that guy thinking?

[nepenthe]

I resent your implications. My QJo is imbued with the innate technology sufficient to blow AA suited out of the waters. Do you hear me? AA suited.

That said, for all effective purposes UTG limped with an offsuit 5 in EP. The Q is just a pretext. Do you see why?

[bisonbison]

Nep, you shouldn't post when drunk, high or deeply enamored of your own posting voice. Leave that to me.

[nepenthe]

I resent your implications. That's thrice in the same thread.

You have not reached the quintessence of drunkenness, highness or amorous love until you have read this. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374521611/103-9181722-5435832?v=glance)

[Trix]

Your hand is most likely best and CO will check through rarely.