2 more 10-20 hands

this is in a good loose passive 10-20 game.


i have J8o in the bb. there are 4 limpers, sb calls, i check.


the flop is 865 rainbow. i bet and 4 players call including cutoff and sb.


the turn is a 2c. i bet again and cutoff and sb call.


the river is Td. i bet again when checked to.


comments?

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i pick up AQo in mid position and raise a chronic limper. button calls, bb calls, limper calls.


the flop is AK8 rainbow. early limper bets, i call, and now the short stacked very weak terrible button raises. he's almost all in. bb folds, limper calls, i call.


the turn is a 3. limper checks, i check, button goes all-in with his last $20, limper calls, i check-raise.


comments?


results later.

Second hand first....I would have played it the same way (assuming I noted that the button was nearly allin, which I usually do).


First hand now...


Well, you need to put the cutoff on some sort of hand. Would he raise on the flop any hand with a 7 (A7, 87, 76, T7, etc...)? If so, then you know he doesn't have a 7, so T9 becomes a possibilty. Of course, 54 and 64 are also possible. Okay, so we can't put the cutoff on a hand.


But, is he overly aggressive (not likely in a loose-passive game). For, obviously, if he's aggressive, you may check the river hoping to induce a bluff. This will fail miserably if the SB is aggressive/tricky and can checkraise the river on a bluff, but since he's playing 10-20 and is likely loosepassive, he can't.


So basically, I have no idea if I bet the river or not. It might fall in the "sometimes I do, sometimes I don't" category. You won't get a better hand to fold, and the only call you may get is from the SB who may have a 6 or 5. Not a ton of value, here, but some.


I don't think it matters in the long run.


Josh

I would have played the first hand the same, somebody should have a pair lower than eights to pay you off. Sometimes you lose pots like this in very good games (for instance, the SB checked the river with T7). It can drive you nuts, but its why the game is so good.


On the 2nd hand, you used good strategy considering the all-in player, but I wonder if raising the flop would not have been a better play. Very bad players (like the button) like to call on the flop, and usually will call 2 bets. I would have tried to get his money when he usually likes to put it in.


BTW Were you planning to raise the turn if the button had just called on the flop? I suppose so, but I wonder if this would be correct. If the most likely hand for the button to have is one pair or a gutshot, you want him to call the turn, and he may lay it down for 2 bets.

Hand one: I think you should bet the river no matter what it is unless it (and the reactions to it) terrifies you so badly that you plan to checkfold. Ni han.


Hand two: The going-all-in player still has two big bets at the start of postflop action. That's not shortstacked enough to affect my play on the flop. I'd raise, with the most straightforward, routine, non-thinking mindset.


Tommy

"Hand one: I think you should bet the river no matter what it is unless it (and the reactions to it) terrifies you so badly that you plan to checkfold. Ni han."


im not so sure about this now. see, the sb is calling with something, as is the cutoff. true they may both have a 7 and they missed their straights, but then my river bet doesnt gain anything. and there's a little too much chance that one of them has an 8 i cant beat or a T. they play passively. cutoff called my river bet and sb overcalled. i said 8, cutoff folded, and sb tabled A8. i built a nice pot for him i think. hope he appreciates it.


"Hand two: The going-all-in player still has two big bets at the start of postflop action. That's not shortstacked enough to affect my play on the flop. I'd raise, with the most straightforward, routine, non-thinking mindset."


im tired of raising a lot on the flop with my very good hands. i want to trap players on the expensive streets more often when they are the sort of weak opponents who are vulnerable to be trapped. i think most of the posters on this board tend too heavily towards playing straight forward and very fast on the flop with top pair and even stronger hands. c'mon guys, your losing money! of course mixing up your play is the crucial factor against tricky or observant players, but against lame passive sorts why not wait till the turn and really kick em when theyre down a little more often? if theyre playing dominated good second besters than let's take the fullest advantage of that. that you used the word "non-thinking" tommy reiterates my point i think. i dont want to play "non-thinking" hold 'em. i was thinking when i realised that the button had one big bet left and that he would fire it on the the turn no matter what. (i also realised that since this is a weak bad player he likely had my top pair beat with a set or two pair and that the ep player most likely had an ace that he would pay me off with for however much i could get from him. so my checkraise on the turn that i set up on the flop ensured that i would get at least 2 big bets from the ep player all to myself. if it got capped on the flop, gee who knows, maybe the sb will fold on the turn? yuck. my check on the turn traps him and he feels pot-stuck like he must call.


results: ep player calls my checkraise on the turn, the river is a Q making me two pair. when he checks to me on the river he says "i check" in a way that basically screams "please have mercy on me". he calls my bet. he mucks without showing, shaking his head in regret. button crumples up K8o and throws them at the dealer as i take the main pot too.

"against lame passive sorts why not wait till the turn and really kick em when theyre down a little more often"


I don't rely on this sort of player to bet, so I don't risk letting them check around. If I wait till the turn, it might be one bet poker on all streets, and one bet poker sucks.

"I don't rely on this sort of player to bet, so I don't risk letting them check around."


i guess this hand didnt really work for my tantrum because i knew the button would bet the turn, the ep player would call and then he would call my checkraise. yet he mightve folded even a weak ace on the turn if i went nuts on the flop and capped it. you see?


yet even if it was just heads up with the ep then i wouldve still just called his flop bet and raised him on the turn. why on earth would i let him know on the flop that he's beat and let him save a sb? forget it.