QQ tiwce in a row 10-20 w/ some questions

im utg+2 w/ QQ in a loose passive very good 10-20 game. first two in limp, i raise, button calls, bb calls.


the flop is K99 rainbow. checked to me and i bet. only the old man right on my right who has been playing pretty tight compared to the rest of the field calls.


turn is a 6. he checks, i bet, he calls.


the river is a 4. he checks and i check.


comments?


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very next hand i look down and see two black Q's.

i open raise, am cold called in two spots and the bb calls.


the flop is 9c5d4d. bb bets, i raise, next guy cold calls, next guy folds, bb calls. i dont know the bb or how he plays except that he seems to be playing quite loose like the rest of the table and not particularly aggressive.


the turn is 9d. bb bets. how do i play the hand from here on out? how close is it between a fold, a raise, and a call and what are the determining factors? remember we only know about the bb what i stated in the paragraph above.


results later.

Reasons to check the turn are:


1). You're holding two of the potential straight cards.

2). Only an ace is an overcard and

3). Your opponent is tight

True, but checking the turn doesn't do that much for you if:


a) your chances of inducing a bluff on the river are slim (this appears to be the case)


b) You'll feel compelled to call the river if bet into.


To the extent that the answer to 'a' is 'slim' and 'b' is 'yes', then I'd bet. The farther these answers move towards 'excellent chance' and 'no' the more inclined I'd be to check. Since this pot isn't a monster, and it sounds like the BB is something of an ABC player, I'd probably check and hope like hell he checked the river.


On hand 2 I raise again. The bet on the turn just seems too unnnatural, as most players would go for a check-raise here. If he three bets I muck unless I've picked up some kind of a goofy re-draw, which I don't believe was the case here.

Mike -


On the first hand, I'm not sure I like the turn bet. If there is a GOOD chance that the tight player on your right has QJ, JT, or QT, then yeah, I can see a bet to charge him to draw to an inside straight. But JT doesn't scare you, as he is drawing dead (but betting is still nice for bet-collecting purposes), QT and QJ are mildly unlikely because you have the QQ.


And you say he's an old man. Old men don't bluff all that much. You can check the turn, and not need to worry about calling the river to protect against a bluff.


And tight men don't draw to gutshots with pairs on the board.


He has KQ or KJ. Check the turn.


On the second hand....


Fold the turn. Yeah, I guess that there is a chance the BB has something like 76s or 77 or some such hand you beat. But you also need to worry about a flop cold-caller on your immediate left who gets to act after you. If you had the Qd, maybe consider calling, but without it, you are drawing to two or four outs. And there's only a tiny chance you have the best hand. And you will have to call another bet on the turn.


Out of curiosity, were these hands at Hollywood Park? I've always heard that the 10-20 there was tight, although I'm sure a loose game isn't unheard of. I still haven't checked it out (I swear I will), as I'm going to Hawaiian Gardens fairly regularly. Something about loose, passive, predictable games that I just love.


Josh

Sorry, on hand 2 didn't see that the turn also brought in the flush.


This does complicate things. In fact, I'd probably fold now, since it's very rare to find a player who well bet into a flop raiser AND a cold caller here without the goods.

I have two rules about octogenarians:


1)When they bet and you can't beat the the obvious betting hand, fold.


2)When they call with a pair on board, they have at least 2 pair.


Both of these rules begs for a turn check.


On the 2nd hand, you are getting 8-1 currently that your hand is good. I think this makes it close between a call and a fold. I don't like the raise, because if the player behind you raises your call, you only lose 1 bet. Also, even if the better has the only hands you can beat, a smaller pocket pair (which will almost always include a diamond) or a pair with the ace of diamonds, you want the player behind you to call. Note that with overcards to your Q he won't call anyway unless his overcard is a diamond, and then he'll call no matter what.


On the river (if you called the turn) I would watcht he player behind me when the BB bet. If it looked like he was planning to call, I would fold. If I wasn't sure, I would call. This is one of those rare instances where it may be correct to fold the river after calling the turn with basically no outs. Most players would not bet anything you can beat after your turn call.

In your first hand, if the "tight" player is very tight-passive (quite likely given the old manness and the way he has played the hand so far), I would check the turn. If he calls your turn bet, he either has a K or a 9 (most likely) or a gutshot (and he would probably correctly fold a gutshot). He is an 11-1 dog to hit his gutshot, and the pot only has 6BB in it. Even if he has the gutshot and will fold to a bet every time, betting the turn here only saves you 6BB one time in twelve, or 0.5BB. So you are investing 1BB to protect 0.5BB in the unlikely event that he called the flop with a gutshot. Otherwise you are losing 1BB. After you check behind on the turn, you can fold to a river bet. This is ONLY if your opponent is a typical old man rock. If you think he is capable of bluffing on the end with a busted gutshot after you check behind on the turn, then bet the turn as you did.

First hand, K-9-9 flop, caller on the right.


Speaking of all opponents, not just the one you faced, I think the turn decision should be based on what you plan to do if you check the turn and RHO bets the river. If planning to fold to a river bet (after check-check on the turn) then check the turn. If planning to call that river bet, then bet the turn.


Put another way, I'd have most of my mind made up right on the flop. We've heard it so many times, that the first read is the best, and to stick with it. But there's nothing magical. It's common sense. With a flop like that, it's rare that the turn card is going to generate a reaction from the opponent that would, could, or should change our course of action. On the flop, he either has us beat, or he doesn't. The time to get that read is at the moment of impact.


Tommy

in the first hand i checked behind on the river and the old man tabled QQ, i showed my QQ and we split the pot. think about he played that hand. he limped with it preflop and then check-called the whole way.


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second hand i folded on the turn when the bb bet. i figured there was enough chance he had a 9 or a flush. even if he was semibluffing with a big flush card or a straight draw i could still lose on the river. flop cold caller behind me also seemed like a 9, a big flush card, or a made flush. so i folded. the player behind me called the turn bet but then folded on the river when a 2s fell and the bb bet again. so ill never know, but im certainly not losing sleep over it.