Bellagio 30-60: Overpair KK Under Assault

This afternoon, I ventured into the world of 30-60 for the first time. The game was playing much tighter than what I had observed over the past few weeks. But, everybody seemed to love their hand in this 3-handed pot.


The hand:


UTG2 open raises. This player has been somewhat loose with his raises including ATo UTG. However, since the game is playing very tight, this play may not be as bad as initially appears. Everybody folds to the small blind who calls. The small blind had just joined the game half an hour earlier. He is definitely the loosest player at the table. I've seen him raise and cold-call with some dubious holdings.


I'm in the big blind and find KhKd. I 3-bet. UTG2 makes it 4 bet. This is a bit surprising not only because I haven't seen him 4-bet pre-flop before but also because he's 4-betting me- a player who has been essentially mucking every hand for the past hour. Small blind cold-calls again. I cap it at 5 bets.


The flop is: Jd,9s,8d


The small blind bets out. I think he would do this with many hands including a Jack, a flush draw, and a straight draw. Of course, he could also bet with better hands. However, I've seen him wait for the turn to checkraise with a flopped top two-pair.


I raise with my overpair KK. UTG2 makes it 3-bets. The small blind 4-bets. I call. UTG2 calls.


The turn is: Jd,9s,8d,3c


Small blind bets out again. I raise.


How would you have played the hand to this point? And, where are my two opponents at?

Probably ahead of you. I would think there is a set out there, and possbly a straight. Fold the turn. You put too much in already.


By the way, was this early in the session? I know this sounds like "money management" but I don't like committing a lot of chips so early in the game. Maybe I'm jaded on this, but I'm not a good come-from-behind player.

You put a lot of money into this hand so far presumably to pinpoint where you're (your reaction to UTG+2 4 betting hints at this). Well, now what? Even if you're hand is somehow still good, it is vulnerable. I think you invested too much post-flop. With any luck, UTG+2 might muck AA thinking the sb flopped huge, and the sb has a draw.

fold on the flop when it comes back to you for 4 bets. you are against a set, AA, or both.

Hello again Dynasty,


Well as you know, my Hold'Em skills are,at best, adequate.. but since I am really trying to learn this game here.. I'm going to take a stab at this one.


Preflop is routine.. If you can't cap with KK then why play poker.. Right.. Right..


anywhoo..


I think the real problem in this hand is the SB. As this flop is the type of flop that will hit a small blind who will call a raise,but not necessarally re-raise. Now you mentioned that the SB was a loose player,but you didn't say anything about maniacal tendencies so I will assume that he is not a complete idiot.


So the problem here is 1)we have a non-suicidal opponent who is betting into two players who capped it pre-flop 2)After he-himself makes it 4 bets on he flop..leads right out again on the turn


So what are his possible hands. I think we can safely rule out pocket Jacks..as the SB would have re-raised b4 flop to play(attempt) heads-up with original raiser. A set of nines is a real possibility and possibly a set of eights. The only other thing I can see is something like J10, where he has top pair and the open-ender. If he is pushing something Like AJ that hard,then he is a real moron and wont last in the 30-60 game. If he called b4 flop with something like Q10d, well then sh*t happens.


Anyway you look at it..the SB has a hand..and to him its worth a lot of money.


Now lets move on to UTG2. It is easier to narrow his hands down by the way he played the flop. He has either AA,QQ,JJ or AQd. (and more remotely KK..but stranger things have happened ) And since your description of him as 'not seeing him 4 bet b4 flop' I am going to go out on a limb and say its AA or QQ.


So, in conclusion to all this jibberjabberish I have typed.. I would be willing to say that you are beaten in at least 1 place here. So I guess it just boils down to the good ol' fashioned Pot Odds that your hand is good. We got a grand already in the pot so we had better be sure that are hand is no good b4 a fold.


I'm assuming that you didn't cap the flop for the specific reason of raising the turn, which you did. I am also assuming you did this for the specific reason of seeing just where you stood against both players.


I'll tell you one thing. If it is 2 more bets back to you on the turn.. at best you are drawing to a two outer.


I may be way off but.. just my three cents worth from a stud player.


Very interesting hand though.


Take Care Dynasty.

See ya in a few weeks.


CJ

Pre-Flop, I think you have a no brainer.


Flop. Must raise. If the UTG player is any good at all, he will muck AK and AQ here, and you want that. I like your non capping for 2 reasons. Your hand probably has less than 33% equity and you set up a possible turn raise.


Turn. I love your raise here, even though you are probably beat. There are 14.5 big bets in the pot when the action is on you, so I think your hand has enough of a chance to make a fold wrong. The reasons I like your raise:


1)You may make the player behind you muck aces. He knows you are tight. He probably won't because he would have to put you on Jacks, and you capped preflop. But he just may think that the chances you do have jacks combined with the possibility of the SB hitting it again are too great and muck aces.


2)He will definately muck kings and he should muck queens (he's not getting the right price for the gutter). You want this.


3)If you just call and the player behind you does not raise, you will probably have to call the river. If the SB has 2 pair, particularly 89, he may stop betting and you'll get a free showdown.


4)If the player behind you 3 bets it, you can be done with the hand knowing you are no good. If the SB 3 bets it, you can lay down on river if the board does not pair.


All that said, you were probably beat and are now kicking yourself for putting in so many chips. Helluva game.

Pre-flop I would have played the same way. The flop raise is clear. I would also have called on the flop. You probably aren't ahead at this point with two people jamming the pot, but you very likely have two K outs (good thing you have the Kd) and if the board pairs, you might be counterfeiting two pair. And there is a respectable chance that you are indeed ahead here plus your outs makes a call correct on the flop.


Honestly, I would not have raised the turn, but I think it is the correct play. The pot is big and you need to encourage UTG2 (who is most likely to have you beaten at this point) to fold.


Where are your opponents? Well, UTG2 4-bet the flop. Even loose raisers generally only 4-bet with big cards. Put him on AA-QQ, or AK... maybe AQs if he is pretty loose. Given your preflop cap, he probably would not have 3-bet AK on the flop... or any AQ except AdQd. I think he's either got AA-QQ or AdQd. I think the turn raise is good because it encourages him to fold AA or KK. Of course he won't fold AdQd here, but I think that holding is quite unlikely.


SB is a little harder to peg. He could have QT, but he'd have to be pretty darn loose to be cold-calling all that pre-flop action with that. I doubt he would 4-bet the flop against two possible overpairs with a Jack... except perhaps with JT. He could have two pair or a set, though your read said that he would probably wait for the turn with those hands (I'm assuming he would play a set similarly to two pair). Given your read, I think he has a big draw... Td9d or maybe Ad9d.

Dynasty,


You can eliminate AK diamonds, you have the King of diamonds. You could make an argument that the preflop raiser has AQ diamonds and has a draw to the nut flush, two overcards to the flop and a gut shot straight draw. The initial raiser could also have AJ spades, flopping top pair,top kicker, and a backdoor flush draw.


I dont know if your opponents would give as much action with these hands preflop however. You could also be against JJ and AA or QQ from the initial preflop raiser.


The SB could have a funky hand like Q10 suited, since he just limped cold called all those raises and post flop shows so much strength. From the way you explained him, the SB can play a bit tricky, so he might not have much, or he could have a monster.


I like these types of posts/exercises. I usually draw the wrong conclusions because I give my opponents too much credit, however I think these posts have a good way of learning and thinking logically.


I would raise on the turn and see what the initial raiser does. I think he might drop if he does only have AJ suited and now a club hits on the turn.


Hopefully you were against AJ and QQ and you dragged a monster pot. /images/smile.gif


MK

your flop raise isnt getting anyone out at this point....the pots too big...


the turn is where i may take a stab. if anyone raises behind me here, im folding. you didnt say anything about the action behind you on the turn, so its kind of inconclusive as to how to play from there. did UTG2 jsut call? how about the SB? a 3 bet is going to tell you where you stand...


b

So, I raised the turn.


UTG2 folded for two bets on the turn. The small blind just called the raise.


The river is: Jd,9s,8d,3c,8h


Small blind checked. I bet. Small blind called.


KK is good.


UTG2 was asked by his friend what he had. He said AK.


However, I madea a misread on the small blind. He had J9o and flopped top two-pair. I was behind him until the river.


Due to the SB's slowplaying of a couple hands earlier, I thought it was very unlikely that he had flopped a very big hand- a straight or set. I also thought it he didn't have two pair. I thought the SB had a pair and a draw or a monsterous draw. The top candidates were JT, AdTd, and Td9d.


That misread caused me to put multiple bets into the pot while I had the worst of it.

I fully understand the perils of being "results oriented" but mistakes are much easier to deal with when they end up making you money rather than costing you money!!!


Claude

What a good game. As it turned out you had outs to continue (seven). You built a nice pot for yourself.


In these wild games it's easy to overestimate what the other players are holding.


Keep playing in this game.

Dynasty,


Good catch on the end, if the board didnt pair, would you still have bet the river? If the SB bet out, would you have called?


I can't believe someone would call a three bet with J9 offsuit. I hope that player donated a lot of money to you by the end of the afternoons session.


MK