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View Full Version : when phil folded his KK


mike l.
08-24-2004, 05:10 PM
anyone know the details of the hand where phil h. folded his KK on the wsop main event they showed this afternoon. anyone ever get a report on what the other guy had?

Justin A
08-24-2004, 05:15 PM
They showed it briefly, but Phil was facing a large bet on the flop of I believe T97 or something close to that and two toned. He had the ESPN cameras show that he had KK, and then went on a spiel making it clear that he was worried about AA rather than a set or straight. His opponent didn't show.

Justin A

MicroBob
08-24-2004, 05:15 PM
i only caught part of it.
but i think phil just flagged the camera over (or it happened to be there) and he showed his KK that he was laying down.
i don't think it was a featured-table thus didn't have the mini lipstick cameras.
they just don't have the resources to cover EVERY table in the early stages so i guess we will never know what the whole situation was with that hand.

although, i do know that it was "The 4th time Phil Hellmuth has ever mucked that hand" (according to him anyway). Yippee....why does Phil think i give a crap.

Sundevils21
08-24-2004, 05:30 PM
what I don't understand about his "speech" is why did he say "I wonder if you have aces man, I really do wonder"? What was he trying to prove? All he did was tell his opponent he had KK or QQ most likely KK. He must have already made his mind up he was either going all in or folding? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

MicroBob
08-24-2004, 05:56 PM
i agree.

i don't think there was anything calculated about it.
he just can't help thinking-out-loud and also wants to show off what a 'gutsy' and talented player he is by being able to lay-down KK.

i'm sure phil was able to 'see into his soul' and made the correct play!!

benkath1
08-24-2004, 10:23 PM
Well you know...If it weren't for luck, he would win every hand he was in. What a tard.

jwvdcw
08-24-2004, 10:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well you know...If it weren't for luck, he would win every hand he was in. What a tard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the quote was 'every tournament.' And just off the top of your head, exactly how many tourneys have you seen him outplayed in? That statement, while arrogant, is a lot more true than many of you think.

Abagadro
08-24-2004, 10:51 PM
I thought I remember reading around here that the guy later said he had JJ or QQ so Phil was actually ahead. Check back in posts about this from last Tuesday.

Richard Tanner
08-24-2004, 11:13 PM
I'm not a big Phil fan, but I have to agree with j here. It seems that 95% of the time when you see phil he's got the money in with the best hand, but that could just be creative editing, who knows.

Cody

Smasharoo
08-24-2004, 11:24 PM
I'm not a big Phil fan, but I have to agree with j here. It seems that 95% of the time when you see phil he's got the money in with the best hand, but that could just be creative editing, who knows.


I'd say mre like 50% of the time. The other 50% you see him lay the best hand down.

daryn
08-24-2004, 11:42 PM
you don't lose the tournament by laying the best hand down. it happens all the time.

The4thFilm
08-24-2004, 11:48 PM
He's only laid down KK 4 times post flop?

brassnuts
08-25-2004, 12:29 AM
I just can't get that image of Phil out of my head. The one right before he went on another rant, where he knocked his chair over standing up, with a headphone stuck in one ear and the other hanging down by his waist and a look on his face as though someone just shot his dog.

JTrout
08-25-2004, 12:45 AM
What I don't understand is WHY he insists on advertising so freely that he is willing to lay down this hand.

We often hear him bragging about making great laydowns, and I don't doubt that he does.

But isn't advertising this fact so much just asking for folks to make plays at you?

What am I missing?

uw_madtown
08-25-2004, 12:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What I don't understand is WHY he insists on advertising so freely that he is willing to lay down this hand.

We often hear him bragging about making great laydowns, and I don't doubt that he does.

But isn't advertising this fact so much just asking for folks to make plays at you?

What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's as smart as he thinks he is, he'd start using that to his advantage by calling/raising in future, similar situations.

- UW

mike l.
08-25-2004, 03:13 PM
"I thought I remember reading around here that the guy later said he had JJ or QQ so Phil was actually ahead."

that's what my read was. i figured the guy had QQ or something and was value betting. it's funny because the kid who was betting looked like an online qualifier type, real nerdy fat kid if i recall. so he's used to just betting good but not great hands and getting called in no limit tournaments. nobody told him youre supposed to fear phil hellmuth there and check. watching phil and daniel get tortured by the unknown qualifiers was very funny.

Bluff Daddy
08-25-2004, 03:31 PM
Phils the funniest poker player by far.

phifediggy
09-15-2004, 11:30 PM
according to paul phillips' livejournal

"Remember the WSOP hand where hellmuth proudly folded his kings after the flop? I have it on good authority that the other guy had a paltry pair of tens. Ha ha. We can never be sure of these things but believe it if you like; I sure do. "

Bremen
09-15-2004, 11:48 PM
and there was a T on the board...

72off
09-16-2004, 01:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
and there was a T on the board...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll refer back to PP:

"C'mon, does my post make any sense at all if the guy had a set of tens? He had a PAIR of tens. One in his hand, one on the board."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/extempore/51041.html

So he folded KK to top pair, not a set. Phil should probably stop advertising that he'll make laydowns like that.

vinnox
09-16-2004, 02:09 AM
If Phil folded kings against my pocket aces (or better) I wouldn't give him the satisfaction of knowing he was right...I'd be telling people I had a weaker hand. Just a thought.

sthief09
09-16-2004, 02:20 AM
From his website:

Here is a taste of my WSOP run in 2004 -- brace yourself for some bad beats. Day 1 I just seem to lose pot after pot and I'm down to $4,175 on the first break. I'm almost in tears as I call my parents at the break, but they pump me up, and I come out smoking after the break and get back to $10,000.

Halfway through day 1 I pick up K-K and the action is raise to $600 by the first position, then second position makes it $2,200 to go, and third position calls. I say, "You better keep those ESPN cameras rolling boys." I decide to merely call before the flop. And the first position folds so that three of us take the flop. It is 10d-7d-4s, and the raiser leads out for $3,500, and the second player calls the bet. My K-K does not include the kings of diamonds, and I start to study.

I have a feeling that the raiser has either Q-Q or J-J, but lurking in my head is the possibility that he may have 10-10 or A-A. Ad-Kd also crosses my mind. After a long study I decide that I can win the event if I fold my hand, and if I call and my opponent has A-A then I'm gone. Finally I fold, showing my hole cards to the camera, but not my opponents. The turn card is the 7c, for 10d-7d-4s-7c, and the original raiser bets out $7,000 and his opponent folds.

Now I have the sinking suspicion that my opponent had Q-Q, but I decide that I have to go with my game plan. For the first 45 minutes afterwards I'm fighting off feeling regret at the lay down. About one hour later, when I have $20,000 in chips without ever being close to all-in, I'm feeling very high and mighty-even if my opponent had Q-Q, he then had a 20 to 1 shot to take me out right then and there, and this way I'm in, in, in. I end the day with a risk free $33,350 feeling like a maestro.

Day 2, on the sixth hand I raise with K-10 to $1,500, and get called by two players including one of my business partners in the new "Phil Hellmuth Million Dollar Poker System" DVD's, John Moonves, who is in the big blind. The flop comes down 10d-3c-2s, and I bet out $1,200. The first player now makes it $5,000 to go, John folds, and I count my opponent down (he has $8,000 more). I decide that I have the best hand, and that I'm just going to call the $3,800 raise. Why not let him bluff off all of his money?

The next card off is the Qs, and I check, and my opponent now checks. The last card off is the 4h, for 10d-3c-2s-Qs-4h, and I bet out a mere $800. My opponent calls me and I say, "Tens," whereupon he flips over Qc-9c. What the heck is going on here? This guy was going to bluff me, Phil Hellmuth, on the sixth hand of the tournament? Uh uh, this is not going to happen, but then he hits the miracle Q, and only wins $800 more from there? Que pasa? A $15,000 pot lost like that!?!

A while later a gentleman opens the pot for $1,500 as I look down at J-J. I count him down quickly and decide that I will raise it to $8,000 to go when it gets to me-I have $28,000. Now a new player says, "I raise," and throws in $2,000. Now I think to myself that J-J is almost never a big favorite over a open, then raise scenario in front of it. But wait, how can he raise when he threw in $2,000 over the top of a $1,500 bet?

A ruling is made, and player 2 is forced to call. Now I see an opportunity to call cheaply, and flop a set and bust someone. The flop comes down 2-3-9, and I check, the raiser checks, and now the new player bets $2,000, and I call. The raiser studies a long time, and folds. The turn card brings the 4h, and I check and my opponent checks. Now the river card is the 10s, so that the board is 2-3-9-4-10, and I bet out $1,500.

The new player asks how much I have left, and I tell him $25,000 which he promptly raises. I fold my hand very quickly face up, and I say, "I know you hit the ten on the end." He says, "You call," and flips his hand face up-it is the 10c-9c. Que pasa? What in the bloody H is going on here? Of course I didn't call, but even worse, I suddenly understand the truth behind this situation. It is bad enough to take the bad beat with 10-9 over my J-J, but even worse, I see the light in an instant: this guy hadn't played a hand in a long time, and it is obvious to me that he didn't see the original raise. This is why he threw in $2,000 and announced he was raising. He would have folded for the $1,500 bet with this hand, this much I know.

To make matters worse, I have the gut instinct that the original raiser had A-K, and I ask him if that's what he had. He immediately says that that was indeed what he had. Now I'm freaking out over the simple inevitability of it all. I was supposed to win $8,000 on this hand, not lose $5,000. This guy was going to fold, and even if did call the $1,500 bet, I was going to raise the original raiser all-in for $8,000, and bust him with my J-J to his A-K. The only thing that stopped me from raising was the fact that I didn't think that this new player missed a raise right in front of his eyes-he was in the 9 seat, and the raiser was in the 7 seat. Wow! What a fluky start to day 2.

Five minutes later I raise with Q-J in late position, and the big blind calls me hesitantly. The flop is Jd-9s-7d, and the big blind checks. Now I bet a decent sized bet of about $3,000, and the big blind moves all-in for about $4,500 more. I call, and he flips over Kd-9d-a pair and a flush draw--and BANG the 4d comes right off, and now I'm reeling. I look down at about $18,000 and now I'm muttering to myself about bad beats, bad players (didn't even see the raise!?!), and bad luck.

It is now announced that they will break my table, and I'm dealt Q-Q under the gun. I make it $1,800 to go, and now I'm freaking out thinking that I'm going to lose this pot to K-K. Everyone folds to the big blind. (Even though our original table had broke, the Q-9 guy was still at my table, and in the big blind!) Now the Q-9 guy moves all-in for my whole $18,000. Finally, I fold my hand face up, and he shows me A-K.

The very next hand, at a different table now, I'm still talking about throwing away pocket queens, when I pick up pocket queens and open for $1,800 again. Incredibly, the big blind moves me all-in! This time I feel like my opponent has J-J or worse, but I still fold my hand face up. The big blind shows 7-7. I don't mind this at all. After all, I could have gone out if he hit a seven. Besides that, who in WSOP history will ever lay down Q-Q in back to back hands, for a single reraise?

Unbelievably, the very next hand I pick up K-K (that's Q-Q, then Q-Q, then K-K in three hands) and open for $1,600, and the same man moves me all-in again. In an instant I call him for my last $11,000, and he flips up A-10, and I double up.

From there I went all the way down to $3,200 in chips and all the way back up to $30,000 in chips (perseverance). I'm not sure that I won another pot.

One hand, I raised with A-Q after a loose player limped in. The flop was A-10-4, and he checked. I bet out $3,000 into the $7,000 pot, and he called me with K-Q! A gut shot, belly buster, BS kind of play that enrages me when they hit the miracle J, which "they" did hit. The Js on the turn also was the flush card, with a board of As-10s-4h-Js, and I checked behind "him." On the end, he moved me all-in, and I folded one more time.

Now, near the end, I actually did have tears in my eyes behind my fine mirrored Oakleys, so that no one could see them. Why had all of this BS happened to me? Are you kidding me? Is this even remotely fair? At the break my parents had finally arrived in town to console me, and pump me up. One last charge then? Of course, you never ever give up in the big one! But I only had $4,100 left with the blinds at $600-$1200.

In the small blind, I called $600 more with K-8, after the button limped in. The flop was 4-8-10, and I moved all-in for a pittance, and the big blind called. The button player raised it up, and when the big blind folded, he showed me a hand that I have written about many times. He showed me Q-10, and when the last two cards came out with no help for me, it was all over.

One more year at the WSOP I came up short. No WSOP titles, and although I outlasted 2200 players in the big one, made the money in five events (even though I skipped many events) to bring my total to 45 (Barry Johnston has 46), and made two final tables (I do have the record at 32), there is no satisfaction whatsoever for me at the 2004 WSOP. By the way, for fifteen years I worked hard to make it to the top of the WSOP all-time money list, but I'll lose my position at the top because first place is $5,000,000 and I'm at $3,600,000 (roughly). Oh well, you can count on this much: I'll be back!

Josh W
09-16-2004, 02:25 AM
He did win his seat online, but is a very very very good player. He plays 100-200 at Commerce from time to time, though a recent run has sent him back to mostly 40-80 games.

He's been a pro for a few years, and splits his action between live and online games. He also plays a lot of tournies, with good results. He's obviously a friend of mine, and I'll ask him if he minds me telling what he had.

I was actually playing cards with him when it was originally aired on TV. He had told me the story right after it happened (that night over the phone), so I knew what he had, and the table we were playing at was very very curious....

Josh

Freudian
09-16-2004, 03:30 AM
If you make a big deal about how proud you are to lay down KK, QQ and JJ at the table you will soon have people make all kinds of plays at you.

Making a laydown is one thing. Making them face up all the time is idiocy.

-Syk-
09-16-2004, 09:56 AM
After Phil's rundown of the hand I don't think this is such a terrible laydown after all. Then again I don't know the blinds, but 10-10 or AA would be a good possibility. I wouldn't have thrown it away, but the way Phil justified it I might have to agree with him.

Why risk it if your instinct tells you that someone might have AKd, AA or Pocket 10s when you know you can just fold and make a great comeback later on in the tourney?

It's the same thing when Keller was put all in by Sousa with a KKX flop and Keller had QQ. Why risk it if you can beat the game at another time, and get your money in when you're certain you have the best hand?

JohnG
09-16-2004, 08:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well you know...If it weren't for luck, he would win every hand he was in. What a tard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the quote was 'every tournament.' And just off the top of your head, exactly how many tourneys have you seen him outplayed in? That statement, while arrogant, is a lot more true than many of you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil has been outplayed in just about every televised final table I've seen him on. Corkins and Esfandiari are 2 that come to mind.