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josh1122

08-24-2004, 04:52 PM

Well, it's kind of a hand and a half post. I'm running very good thus far at this limit (+175BB in about 3500 hands) and the poor calibur of my opponents is an unexpected and welcome suprise.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 3-bets, CO caps, SB folds, Hero???

Is mucking this here giving my opponents too much credit? MP1 is a total LAG and my guess was he was limp-reraising just for the fun of it. But CO's cap scared me (no read on him).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

I'm not sure about this one all over the place. Cap or just call the 3bet preflop? On the turn, given I bet the flop, bet out again and fold to a raise(I didn't, yuk) or check/call or fold? BB was a LAG but MP1 was a loose/passive fish so maybe i should have respected his preflop 3bet and turn raise? Any other thoughts?

JDErickson

08-24-2004, 06:54 PM

Hand 1 I think you have to see the flop. Proceed carefully from there.

Hand 2 depends on your opponents. I normally won;t cap with JJ unless opponent is a LAG. When you get raised on turn after the K hits you are in bad shape. I think you could compfortably fold here.

Richard Berg

08-25-2004, 12:20 AM

Hand 1: check your option, and it's not close. This is classic reverse implied odds.

Hand 2 is read dependent but I'm interested to see what others say.

MAxx

08-25-2004, 12:53 AM

Hand 1- Looks real odd to me. I accept your read of MP1 as a jackass. CO seems kind of weird. I mean, it doesn't really make much sense for him to make his play. Limp reraisning doesnt make sense here for a CO poster. He already has two limpers, why not raise with the goods off the bat. He has no reason to expect button or blinds to raise after him. I would call and proceed cautiously. I would tend to think both MP and CO are both full of it, but would take extra care on flop.

Hand 2- I think you should not cap JJ as SOP here. I would call 3 bet and make my play on the flop. Most likely a c/r. This would change the entire process of the rest of the hand.

However based on the way the hand developed, I think your calling the turn raise is acceptable. It would also be an acceptable fold. There are 2 Jacks and 4 queens that improve your hand. We should discount your outs b/c they are tainted. If we discount your outs to 4 it is a clear call. IF we discount them to only 3, its a fold. IF we discount them to 3.5 it is close enough to call. Now I am no expert at discounting outs, but my range of outs seems reasonable to me.

Given the lead of the BB on River, folding looks like the best play at that point.

MicroBob

08-25-2004, 01:02 AM

i like your take on hand 1.
at first i just thought....'its coming back capped and i have AJo so get rid of it' but your reads on the strangness of these limp-reraises convinces me that it's worth a couple more SB's to see the flop.
after you're raised you are calling because of your straight-draw (or trips).

that's my amateurish take on it anyway.

these plays are goofy enough that your AJ might be best for all you know.

hand 2 i usually cap PF....but you don't have to.
when the K comes i think a bet and a call is okay. your

sfer

08-25-2004, 01:14 AM

Hand 2 is fine. I rarely cap with JJ preflop. I like when you dumped your hand.

Hand 1 of course you call. This limp/3-bet or cap with trashy hands nonsense after a raise behind are common at Party. I've taken to capping with a wider range of hands when I feel like the capper is trying to build a pot. Like with JJ, for example. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bakku

08-25-2004, 02:50 AM

Hand 1: check your option, and it's not close. This is classic reverse implied odds.

I really hope you're kidding.

JTG51

08-25-2004, 04:17 AM

But CO's cap scared me (no read on him).

Players almost never limp raise after a couple of limpers with monsters. They do it with small to medium pairs and suited cards. I'd call. If you had raised in the SB then the BB 3-bet and a reasonable UTG limp capped it, you'd have reason to be worried.

BB was a LAG but MP1 was a loose/passive fish so maybe i should have respected his preflop 3bet and turn raise? Any other thoughts?

Capping with JJ preflop againt a passive 3-bettor isn't a good idea. I'd definitely just call the 3-bet. You can't fold to the turn raise with a gutshot and a pair getting 12-1. That might be a good reason to check the turn.

josh1122

08-25-2004, 01:21 PM

Thanks for responses all.
I called hand 1 and was eventually shown KTo by MP1, CO mucked to one bet on a raggedy flop. Hmmmmm. Looks like I did get the right read.
Hand 2 MP1 had KK.

sthief09

08-25-2004, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: check your option, and it's not close. This is classic reverse implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I'm reading this from you. this is so wrong. even without the poster in there, you should raise. but with the dead money in there from the CO and a LAG that limped, this is the easiest raise in the world. saying it's not close is just ridiculous. just because there are reverse implied odds doesn't give you an excuse to check with what is, by far, the best hand.

Pil Sung Do

08-25-2004, 01:35 PM

just because there are reverse implied odds doesn't give you an excuse to check with what is, by far, the best hand.

What hands do you put the CO on when he check/caps (and I realize that he posted out of turn)?

sthief09

08-25-2004, 01:39 PM

Axs, a pocket pair, a suited connector, AA, or KK.

MAxx

08-25-2004, 01:48 PM

I don't give credit for AA or KK here, b/c of reasons i mentioned before. I think he could be gambling up with Axs or any pocket pair, or maybe worse... and seeing that he is making this play... worse is definitely possible. In fact IMO Hero has a very good chance of having the best hand pf. In the case that CO actually has AA or KK (which i doubt), I think he made a very bad play and lucked into a good situation.