A9s and under

For the experts: Hi,

I've been getting a lot of mixed advice on these hands. Some tell me it's a drawing hand and should get in cheap, other sources say to raise b/c it likes small pots (THEFAP).. etc.

So Who? When? Where? Why? and How? should these hands be played?

Thanks

[JinX11]

Muck.

No seriously, you need lots of callers in an unraised pot. Late positon, too. You're hoping for a flush...chance of that happening = not good. With an A flopping, it's not worth playing long term, b/c you'll be outkicked often. I'd rather have A2s-A5s rather than A6s-A9s because of the added straight possibility.

Looking at my personal stats, I'm only in the positive with AKs, AJs, A7s, ATs, A2s, and A4s. Wow, I'm in the negative with AQs...ouch, didn't expect to see that (hence, definitely not an "expert").

[Pokerho]

I think this hand depends on implied odds moreso than alot of other hands. If you can get into the hand cheaply, with alot of people, and some of those people have alot of chips, theres a decent chance you can take the K high flush on a nice ride, or river someone with 2 pair, etc.

[Tosh]

Your question is too vague to really answer.

[Tosh]

Don't be silly, A9s (for example) is a nicely profitable hand, even from EP in most games.

[juanez]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather have A2s-A5s rather than A6s-A9s because of the added straight possibility.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a common fallacy.

A9s will win more than A2s because if you pair your kicker, 9's will win much more than 2's. Also, if you pair your Ace, your 9 kicker will win more often than the 2 kicker.

My PT stats for A9s - A2s after 16,000 hands at Party 1/2:
A9s +0.28 BB
A8s +0.24 BB
A7s -0.02 BB
A6s +0.13 BB
A5s -0.03 BB
A4s -0.44 BB
A3s +0.05 BB
A2s -0.34 BB

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Muck.

No seriously, you need lots of callers in an unraised pot. Late positon, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be able to comfortable limp in most LL tables from as early as UTG.

[ QUOTE ]
You're hoping for a flush...chance of that happening = not good.


[/ QUOTE ]

You will flop a 4 flush 10% of the time, which puts you in a +EV situation. 10% isn't great, but it's not terrible either if you consider the payout in a LL game. With multiple opponents, you "own" a share of every bet that goes into the pot. You also have the luxury of playing aggressively for the pot, which will sometimes win it for you without making your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
With an A flopping, it's not worth playing long term, b/c you'll be outkicked often. I'd rather have A2s-A5s rather than A6s-A9s because of the added straight possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's usually wise to get to a showdown with top pair unless the action is heavy and it's clear you are beat. Also, I would definately rather have A9s than A2s...it's alot stronger. The straight possibility doesn't even come close to overcoming the value of a bigger kicker.

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at my personal stats, I'm only in the positive with AKs, AJs, A7s, ATs, A2s, and A4s. Wow, I'm in the negative with AQs...ouch, didn't expect to see that (hence, definitely not an "expert").

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess...4k hands?

[Blarg]

I think the quality of your flop and post-flop play will have a lot to do with how good these hands are. Some people will make much more profit off these hands than others.

So it's probably best to work these hands into one's game keeping that in mind. While a good player may find these hands profitable and advise you to play them, beginners should probably be prepared to find them not very profitable, or even losing hands.

These are the types of hands you can become better at by practicing and understanding the ideas in Miller's SSHE. You will probably frequently find yourself seeing a lot of completely missed flops yet with perhaps the your ace still iving you the best hand on the table, with middle pairs and a great kicker, and with backdoor draws. You will have to worry about counterfeited cards whether your hand improves or not, and about being extremely careful to find every last out if you want to know the true value of your hand, which can be deceiving.

No big deal, perhaps, to better players. Others need to tread with care and might want to ask themselves if they have the flop and post-flop skills to make these hands better than a break-even proposition in the long run.

There is one nice benefit to playing these cards even if you only break even or lose a little, however, no matter what your skill level. It can add deception to your game. You may not want people folding every time you hold an ace and an ace hits the board. Catching you either winning or losing with a hand like Ace-junk suited once in a while can keep your customers coming back for more.

[JinX11]

Actually, a little over 26,000 hands (still not a massive sample size); one who can say that he is in the black, overall, that's for sure...so, no need to be snotty, friend. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I simply have not had much luck with Axs - then again, I'm the type that doesn't like to fold once I decide to get involved in a pot, unless I'm clearly beaten, so I'm prone to overplaying. This may be a weakness of my game (nobody's perfect), but I'd rather go to war with AK and lose to a set (a rare occurrence) than go to war and find myself outkicked with A9 (a much more common occurrence). I just think you can lose a lot more with A6s-A9s if you a) play them too often, especially disregarding position or b) play them too far into a hand because you mislead yourself with an "okay" kicker when your A flops. Also, it's much easier to drop a low Axs than a high Axs and so lose less with them.

I think most things I've read have stated that Axs is vastly overrated to begin. Yes, obviously, you'd rather have A9s over A2s for kicker value (I really wouldn't care, b/c I'd generally muck'em both), but you're taking the extreme side of the argument there. I could take the other extreme by comparing A5s and A6s - I'd rather have A5s. I think there's some tradeoff there.

Also, I'm assuming you are a limit player; as such, you can afford making a mistake here and there. I certainly would not advise falling in love with A9s in NLH.

[JinX11]

I think you're right on the money here and you probably are bridging the gap between my thoughts and the thoughts contrary that others are posting: it comes down to style and what works for you.

Great point about deception/advertising....

[sthief09]

maybe you just don't play them well...

they are very profitable hands in LL limit games.

[sthief09]

Pokerroom.com EV (any limit, any position, 10 handed table):
A9s- .18
A8s- .10
A7s- .08
A6s- .03
A5s- .08
A4s- .06
A3s- .02
A2s- .00

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather have A2s-A5s rather than A6s-A9s because of the added straight possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

The straight value of A2-A5 is pretty small. There are several problems:
There is only one comination of ranks that will make a straight with any of this group.

The straights you make are not nut straights. With A2, you make the third best straight.

Any straight draw you flop is gutshot, so unless you have other outs, it's usually not worth continuing.

On balance, the better kicker is worth more, although I believe A5 is slightly better than A6.

[JinX11]

Yep...all the more reason to muck the lot, in general.

Make no mistake - I'm not advocating playing A2s-A5s, except in the right situations (preferably late position, by limping with lots seeing the flop OR by raising with no callers to pressure the blinds). But, if I had to choose, maybe I'm making the wrong choice.

I am impressed that many others find good success with A6s-A9s and, to some extent it sounds, regardless of position...just seems to go against my personal experience (which seems to be that of a rock, I suppose) and what I've read (read more??). I don't think these Axs hands can stand a raise at any point in the hand, except when you've made a flush, which doesn't occur often enough, or maybe when you have a read on someone. So, a passive table would help, too, I suppose.

I do rather enjoy getting paid off by someone with Ace-rag when I'm holding AK. On the other hand, it sounds like others are making enough with those hands in other situations to afford to pay me off, too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I imagine playing these hands has an impact on your variance/stdev, too, which for me, causes heartburn.

[Tosh]

I am tighter than a lot on here but you sound even more of a rock than me! Thats not so bad but as your postflop play develops I think you will play more hands including Axs.

[BugSplatt]

The ace rag suited (A2 A3 A4 A5) is debatable. Straight possibilities, yes, but never the nut straight, and if it is a pot with a lot of limpers, anything can be out there.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at my personal stats, I'm only in the positive with AKs, AJs, A7s, ATs, A2s, and A4s. Wow, I'm in the negative with AQs...ouch, didn't expect to see that (hence, definitely not an "expert").

[/ QUOTE ]

This just means your sample size is small.