Couple of starting situations

1. Given a poor, loose player, should you play ATo and AJo to a raise? If so, raise or call?


2. On the button against average players (and let's say 15-30 so that the SB is 2/3 of a bet), should you try to steal with J9o? Q9o? KTo?

A "poor,loose player" is quite non-descriptive.


The thing is that most poor, loose players are that way because they call too much but don't themselves raise enough. As such, when one of these guys raise, your AJ/AT is in more trouble than if the raise had come from a good player (i.e. because unlike the poor player, the good player may well be raising with hands worse than yours because he perceives the situation to be good for a raise).


So, overall, I would say that it's particularly wrong to coldcall with AT and AJ when the raise is from a poor, loose player.


On the other hand, if this chap is a poor and loose player because he resembles a maniac, well then, you can't let some clown run you off your AT/AJ every time he splashes the pot with a whole whack of chips.


As for your second question, I would steal on the button with all of those hands. Probably the cut-off as well. Two of the button is debatable. 3 off the button is probably a muck.

We don't know what the other has. You take AJ and I'll take the A-10 but you have to let me go last. You raise, I reraise, you call, and we see the flop heads up. An ace flops. It won't happen very often. And when it does, I'll be cautious and slow behind you, letting you lead, I won't raise, getting out cheap with a loser, or inducing you to bluff, or checkcall the river, otherwise.


More often than an ace coming, a ten will come. Now you really are dominated, badly, in the way that costs, some when you don't improve, and plenty when an ace comes.


But most of the time, I'll be making money because we both missed and I was the last aggressor preflop.


Tommy

Assuming that you are playing in a game with players who aren't really familiar with your habits/strategy, I agree that being the last aggressor preflop is a very good thing, giving you a lot of hands just because you put an extra small bet in before the flop (this assumes that your opponent is inclined to fold a hand like AQ when he misses the flop against a 3bettor). But where does it stop?


Say you 3bet AKo against a good player raising from mid position and he reraises you, do you lay down a flop that you missed on? Do you think putting in a 4th bet with AQ against a 3 bettor is a good idea if your opponent doesn't know your play well?


Thanks,

Ben

"most of the time, I'll be making money because we both missed and I was the last aggressor preflop."


So why not do this with any hand?

1. If you play, re-raise, for reasons Tommy gives above (and despite my post in response). But you've got to be careful in that if you know the original raiser is weak, the other players will know that you know and know that your 3-betting standards have lowered. Best to pass in early position and re-raise if you're in the cut-off or on the button.


2. K-To definitely. The other two, yes, if you feel you play better than the blinds.

if you are in late against a late loose raiser 3 bet AJ. A10 i would dump.


K10 raise, the other 2 dump

"So why not do this with any hand?"


Because if you go to the well too often you eventually die of thirst, or something like that.


Tommy

"Say you 3bet AKo against a good player raising from mid position and he reraises you, do you lay down a flop that you missed on?"


I'm getting 10-1 pot odds, with position, to take one off to make top-pair top pair on the turn, plus whatever implied odds. I think that's worth a look against any opponent.


"Do you think putting in a 4th bet with AQ against a 3 bettor is a good idea if your opponent doesn't know your play well?"


I think it's sometimes a good idea, but not for that reason. I do it depending mainly on commitment level. If I'm feeling like a showdown against that player at that time, then sure, I'll 4-bet preflop with AQ and bet out and give him a chance to throw away a pocket pair (a likely holding) if overcards come. Otherwise, I'll call his three-bet and checkfold right on the flop after a miss.


Tommy

You're right -- the player description wasn't very good. But I hadn't seen any of the loose guy's raising hands. Basically, all that I had seen was that he was playing any two suited, connected, gapped, etc, and he bet almost automatically on every flop.

Regarding the ATo hand, I folded both times in this situation recently -- once in 9-18 against a late position, tight, solid player after I had committed one bet (folded for the second). The second time was last night in 15-30 against a mid-position, poor, loose player while in the cut-off. Perhaps it's results oriented, but I would've won both times and questioned both folds.


With J9o on the button, I raised, bet the flop (K9x) and checked down the rest of the way (KKT9x). I ended up losting to the small blind (15-30, so he was 2/3 committed to a full bet before my raise) who was holding JT. I find it almost a guessing game in terms of whether I had the best hand by the turn...

Interesting line of play which I hadn't considered -- I'll try it sometime and see if I lose a lot of chips.


By the way, you should stick around for aces cracked next time... /images/wink.gif

I have considered this line of play, but never in the AT way, because I can't see why doing it with 98s and the likes is several times better. And now you really don't have to worry about cutting your losses when an Ace indeed flops.


lars

"Because if you go to the well too often you eventually die of thirst, or something like that."


speaking from experience, youre followed there by a mob of about 8 people and they drown you.

Tommy,


Let's play. You get on my left and always call my raises with A,T. That will be fun. The point of not being dominated is that when you make a playing hand it figures to be best. Sure occaisionally you can out play your opponent but does that mean it's o.k to play a weaker hand. The point here is that you don't know what the other player has, only a range of hands he may have of which one or more may dominate you. In which case you have to play as you detailed above and PRAY you are right when no ACE comes plus pray I fold my A,J when you bet your A,T on the river. Fold? Me? I dun tink so, sometimes. Besides the answer to the posters question is the same for A,Jo or A,To. Play them.


Vince

"I folded. . .against a late position, tight, solid player after I had committed one bet (folded for the second)"


-I would never limp if I was going to fold to one raise. I'm not sure of the blind structure in 9-18, but assuming it's a sb of $3 and a BB of $9, and that nobody else called the raise, you're still getting 39:9 to call the raise with a hand you felt was good enough to limp with to begin with. Tight, solid players will not have to have a monster to raise from late position against a single limper.


Maybe better advice would be to never limp with A-T. Either pump it or dump it.


"With J9o on the button, I raised, bet the flop (K9x) and checked down the rest of the way (KKT9x). I ended up losting to the small blind (15-30, so he was 2/3 committed to a full bet before my raise) who was holding JT. I find it almost a guessing game in terms of whether I had the best hand by the turn..."


-If your opponent just called your bet on the flop, it's unlikely he has a K. I would have bet again on the turn (whether it was a K or a T). With J-9, I figure it's unlikely I'm going to have top pair all the way to the river, so if I don't feel I can play aggressively post-flop, I fold it pre-flop. That's why I said in my original post I would only play this hand selectively from the button.


Another point, which you allude to, is that although you're getting a better deal to try to steal in 15-30 ($25 for your $30 raise) as opposed to a game where the sb is 1/2 or 1/3 the BB), there's more incentive for the sb to play since he has 2/3 of a bet already in the pot. And the more the sb plays the more the BB plays. So I will try to "steal" with slightly worse hands in games where the sb is a smaller percentage of the BB than when it is 2/3 of the BB.

"You get on my left and always call my raises with A,T. That will be fun."


Vince, I've hardly called a preflop raise all year.


But I do like your idea of calling me all the way to the river with no pair. You're right! Let's play!


Tommy

"By the way, you should stick around for aces cracked next time..."


Jen, okay, will do. But you'll have to chit-chat more.


Tommy

My idea of calling you all the way to the river is just like your idea of raising me with no pair and the worse hand because you have position. You're right let's play.


Vince

The presence of sage-foxes, volkswagen bus owners/ fathers who sing to their kids in the car, goodkindacrazy-incommunicado-nearly-blueman-drummers, and thoughtful lawyers from BC, with a touch of barley, hops and yeast thrown in, Sredni's eyelids twitched. Add in sexual punnery, and Sredni was thrust into this den of iniquity....


Merely to ask the question:


Can Sredni bet on the rake on this one?


Peace.


R

Sorry, that night I had finally gotten unstuck and had been playing for 12 hrs already (it was 7am!). I was only staying because of the promotion...

Thanks for the advice, Andy.


The reason I dumped ATo was because I thought he either had a better ace (he did -- AKo) or high pocket pair as he was still two off the button AND I know that he knows that I'm a tight player (I limped in early) -- either way, I was drawing to three outs. I'm not sure what I think about pumping ATo (I was second in) -- won't I just be isolating myself with better hands?


In the case of the J9o steal, had another overcard not dropped, I would have continued betting. With two overcards to my pair and the guy calling my flop bet, I thought I might be beaten.


Also, yes, when I was referring to the SB being 2/3 of a bet, I was implying that it was more difficult to steal as the SB will play more hands. But I have the opposite opinion -- that my hands should be slightly better in this case since I'll likely be playing against more opponents, no?

Geeze Tommy, if you want...I will gladly and happily dominate you. Wow....you do have a way with words. /images/wink.gif. Babe

Shredni- yes, you can bet on the rake if I can deal the cards. Babe.

Cool!


Usually found in the din of inequity, it's still a pleasure to find him in this den of iniquity.

A-T just ain't that good a hand. As Tommy suggested, you really want to be last to act with it. Very unlikely this is gonna happen limping.

But I'm not much for limping anyway with any hand.


"I have the opposite opinion -- that my hands should be slightly better in this case since I'll likely be playing against more opponents, no?"


Yes, which is what I said (or tried to say, with very bad syntax).