JTo in the BB vs. MP raise. Weird postfloppery.

[bisonbison]

Just reviewing some hands from yesterday and found this one. The table was a typical Monday afternoon table. EP limps mean multiway, but if they fold it may be HU.

My opponent here is tight and not very aggressive preflop but is aggressive postflop.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls,

Flop: (5.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: (2.66 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (4.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.66 BB

[ipp147]

Hi,

I like it and think it looks quite standard on the turn and river. I presume the check call on the river is because if you lead out only a better hand will call or raise whereas a worse hand may bluff if checked to.

Just one question,

[ QUOTE ]


My opponent here is tight and not very aggressive preflop but is aggressive postflop.



[/ QUOTE ]

What are we putting MP2 on here, I might have taken a shot at the flop putting him on overcards. What do you do on the flop if he bets once you have checked. Is it possible he is slowplaying a monster (AA/KK) heads up trying not to scare you out the pot or allowing you to catch up?

ps - thanks for your autorate pokertracker post, I managed to find 4 L-LP's on a 2/4 table yesterday!

[bisonbison]

Even a tight/passivish player could have a wide range of hands on this flop. If he bet, I would probably peel one off.

[sthief09]

I don't love the preflop call. given the relatively late position from which he's raising, I'd suspect that you're dominated more often than you'd like to be. I'd much rather a hand like 76o, where I KNOW what my outs are, than a hand like JT where I can be dominated and be unsure of whether I'm ahead or outkicked.

what was your plan on the flop? check-fold?

[bisonbison]

Hmm. good point about the cloudy outs, but I felt like the added dead money from the blind made this closer to a call than a fold. I'll admit I probably peel one off on the flop. Bad?

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't love the preflop call. given the relatively late position from which he's raising, I'd suspect that you're dominated more often than you'd like to be. I'd much rather a hand like 76o, where I KNOW what my outs are, than a hand like JT where I can be dominated and be unsure of whether I'm ahead or outkicked.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know what your outs are but you don't know how many you need.

I think I fold both hands even with the extra dead money.

[sthief09]

so what hands would you play from here? a pair or a premium hand?

[Tosh]

I am tight here assuming MP has a proper raising hand. I guess any pair, QJs+, and AJo+. I may throw in some more hands but its just a position I'm not too keen on getting into, though the dead money would make me a little looser.

[Trix]

Dont defend with this cheese. Postflop is fine.
You could have gone for a check-raise on the turn if you felt frisky.

I want KJ or ATo here I think.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
so what hands would you play from here? a pair or a premium hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Suited connectors and any 2 suited cards nine or better.

From MP2 you often see open-raises like 88 and A8. For that reason I am in no hurry to prefer 76o to JTo. Probably I muck them both.

[bisonbison]

Alright, I guess the three of you makes it official. Don't defend with cheese.

Results: MP was raising light and flopped the nuts, turned the nuts and rivered the nuts.

[Trix]

You should fold the flop if he had bet. If you had a gut, you should call.

[StellarWind]

The postflop play looks fine.

This is all very suspicious. Did he show you AA?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Even a tight/passivish player could have a wide range of hands on this flop. If he bet, I would probably peel one off.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, a tight/passive would have an actual raising hand that beats and quite possibly dominates J-high.

I'm with Trix. Don't call a bet when you are behind and hope you might have six outs.

[Trix]

If the board was less cordinated, meaning that you might check behind on the turn if you called his flop bet, intending to fold the river unimproved, then you could check-call the flop with little, but it isn´t going to happen here.

[MarkD]

This echoe's my pre-flop play here. I would also add KQo+ to the list. Maybe KJo if I knew a bit about the player and thought he would raise light but this is unlikely (that I play KJo).

[sthief09]

what are your feelings on A9s? to be honest, I wouldn't dream of playing that from this spot. I know it's just one very specific hand, but I think it'll help improve my understanding of playing medium aces against a raise.

[MarkD]

Well, I call. You are getting over 4-1 head's up with the poster's money in their. You may be dominated but you have chances and it's likely that buddy is raising lighter than usual with the poster in teh pot. You need to be careful though.

I haven't given this situation a lot of thought but I'm leaning towards playing Axs in this spot and would often adopt a check/call, check/call, bet approach post-flop if an ace comes. Honestly, after having written that I must admit I feel uncomfortable as my kicker drops below a 9. Eight I'm ok, seven I feel sort of ok but not great and below that I start to not like it much but will show down a pair of ace head's up.

[Trix]

Against an aggressive player I play it for sure. He will probably open most suited broadway cards, medium pairs and maybe a few lower suited Aces.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't given this situation a lot of thought but I'm leaning towards playing Axs in this spot and would often adopt a check/call, check/call, bet approach post-flop if an ace comes. Honestly, after having written that I must admit I feel uncomfortable as my kicker drops below a 9. Eight I'm ok, seven I feel sort of ok but not great and below that I start to not like it much but will show down a pair of ace head's up.

[/ QUOTE ]
The kicker is extremely important. Obviously it could matter in ace-vs.ace but I am primarily thinking of the times there is no ace but you pair the kicker. Open-raises from middle position are often medium or small pairs or feature one big card with a somewhat random kicker which may pair. The bigger your kicker, the more likely you are to beat his pair. When you both have a pair there will be betting and a showdown with a 6-8 BB final pot. At that point the difference between a pair of nines and a pair of sixes is very important.

[MarkD]

This is one of the things I was thinking about when I talked about the kicker but I should have verbalized it as it's an important consideration. The kicker is important in Ace/Ace confrontations as well as kicker/pair confrontations. Good catch.

[arkady]

bison,

i fold pre-flop and think real carefully about the river, u can beat 88,99, QK - thats about it. *shrug*

i would fold that river actually, use your read bison.