I hate 20/2s

[ddubois]

People never fold! I constantly bust out pushing my Ax and get called by Kx and they suck out. But when the reverse occurs, I of course lose. How can this guy make this call? His whole tournament on the line, on the bubble, with A9s. I haven't played back at a single blind steal the entire tournament, and I've shown nothing but great cards at every showdown.

***** Hand History for Game 874911370 *****
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: P0K3RM4N ( $3550 )
Seat 7: swoollinator ( $1365 )
Seat 4: riveler ( $815 )
Seat 10: jcchou ( $2270 )
Trny:5419808 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to P0K3RM4N [ Qd Kd ]
riveler folds.
swoollinator raises [175].
jcchou folds.
P0K3RM4N raises [1150].
swoollinator is all-In.
jcchou: damn!
P0K3RM4N calls [165].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 7s, Ac ]
jcchou: here we go
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
jcchou: ouch
P0K3RM4N shows [ Qd, Kd ] a pair of eights.
swoollinator shows [ 9h, Ah ] two pairs, aces and eights.
swoollinator wins 2755 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and eights.
nh

I ended up busting out in 4th when I pushed a small pocket pair into the BB's AA. I sit here in disbelief, that I managed to miss ITM with that massive stack. !@#$ /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[greytedeals]

looks like u made the poor play that hand. 4 handed, A9s has more strength as well.

[UncleRemus]

I really don't think it's a poor play at all. . . Button is in steal position, and has the small stack at the table covered by quite a bit. Dub says this is the first time of him coming over the top of someone like this, and he more than has the villain covered. There is such a variety of hands button could make this raise with, and he should be laying most of them down in this spot (including A9.) It was a bummer to get called in this spot, but I like the play and would make it routinely.

[bones]

Well, has he been getting played with? Has he been on the bubble for awhile? Is he tired? Has he been folding a lot (A9s is the best he's seen in awhile) and got caught up?

Your tight table image only matters to someone who doesn't mind laying down to a re-raise. My guess is that he got a decent bubble hand and decided to go with it, no matter what happened after he made the initial bet. It might be dumb, but we've all been there where we're getting frustrated, we get a decent hand, get popped back...but that call button is so tempting. Call it tilt, whatever...but we've all done it.

Or he could just be a bad player. Very real possibility there.

Sorry 'bout the bubble though.

[ddubois]

We hadn't been on the bubble long, as you can see it was only level 3. The deck had run me over and there were lots of fish calling going all-in with TPNK.

Villan had stolen a some blinds, not a huge amount, but more than the others at the table. I had not been stealing any blinds yet.

Should I have re-raised some other amount? Like to 400, as if I have a hand that wants called? Or does that just encourage him to come back over the top?

Should I just call, and turbo-muck any flop with an ace?

Or should I just give up every blind until someone busts?

I rountinely have problems with overplaying KQs. You would think I would learn.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
there were lots of fish calling going all-in with TPNK.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your first post, you started off by saying that 20+2ers never fold. It seems like this is what got you a big chip lead. It's par for the course in low buy-in sngs. You'll get sucked out on occassionally.

As for the hand, I'll leave that for someone who plays better than me. I probably would just call, as I think a small re-raise prices him to call with just about any mediocre hand and lets him go over you with just about anything. If he re-raises, are you gonna call? If you are, I think pushing in the first place would be a better play and just be ready for the consequences. If you'll fold to a re-raise, I'd probably just see a flop.

[mscott2374]

[ QUOTE ]
People never fold! I constantly bust out pushing my Ax and get called by Kx and they suck out. But when the reverse occurs, I of course lose. How can this guy make this call? His whole tournament on the line, on the bubble, with A9s. I haven't played back at a single blind steal the entire tournament, and I've shown nothing but great cards at every showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to have the same problem. I think one of the issues at this level is that although you are playing tight, only showing down good hands and not stealing early on etc... even though you feel that this should be enough for you to gain the respect of the remaining players at the table, the truth is that most of them probably haven't even noticed how you are playing. ALL they are interested in is their own cards.

As for this specific hand. Why did you feel that you had to put in such a large raise at this stage of the tourney?
Did you think that you had to put in such a bet to find out how good your hand was?

I agree with you that this guy made a terrible call, but I can't say that I like they way that you put so many chips at risk on a nothing hand so early in the tourney.

Please accept my apologies if I have rambled on a bit.
I hope this helps & makes sense.

All IMHO of course

[jac394]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to have the same problem. I think one of the issues at this level is that although you are playing tight, only showing down good hands and not stealing early on etc... even though you feel that this should be enough for you to gain the respect of the remaining players at the table, the truth is that most of them probably haven't even noticed how you are playing. ALL they are interested in is their own cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is one of the most important statements you can make about the low limit tourneys at Party. While I've only dabbled in the 50 and 100 tourneys there, in my 10,20 and 30 tourney experience this is normally the case, sometimes even when you get into a heads up match-up.

[BigJer]

Sorry man, with respect I don't see the problem. The other guy had A9suited and thought the big stack was trying to bully him into folding after his 175 raise. He took a chance and it worked out.

I'm surprised he didn't hit you with some "that's poker!" nonsense in the chat window. Boy, that makes me mad /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ddubois]

thought the big stack was trying to bully him into folding after his 175 raise

There seems to be alot of defense of the villian play in this hand, so I want to go on record with my rationale for why this is a bad play.

What range of hands will re-raise all-in on the bubble? A shorter stack might only do top 10% (http://home.earthlink.net/~craighowald/data/matchup2.html), to which he is a 1:1.8 dog. It's true, I can be a bit looser with the big stack, but does anything think a non-maniac would do this with any ace crap? Personally Top 15% (http://home.earthlink.net/~craighowald/data/matchup2.html) is a wider range than my minimum, of which KQs is a member. I think that's a reasonable approximation of an average player. He's a 1:1.3 dog to that range of hands, and moreover, not to harp on the oft-touted fold equity, he's calling all-in, not pushing.

Even if he thinks I'll be as crazy as top 25% (roughly any ace, any pair, any suited broadway), he's still only a coin flip. Now, I see this all the time. All these bad players are so thrilled at the chance to call all-in and flip a coin to double up - hell, maybe coin-flipping is +EV for bad players. But the truth is, if I have to flip coins often enough, I know I am going to bust, so I don't want to do it. So many people call me holding 55 when I push with AK, and then justify it by saying "What, my hand is a favorite" - sure, if you can see my cards and know I never have a pair. It's an awful play, but half the time they win, and there's nothing I can do to punish this bad play - other than push when I have bigger pairs, and hope some loosey is holding 55 that orbit.

[tubbyspencer]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played back at a single blind steal the entire tournament, and I've shown nothing but great cards at every showdown.



[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the problem is that people don't notice this, for a variety of reasons. The fact that you haven't played back at him yet does not add anything to your fold equity in this play if he isn't paying attention/doesn't know what to look for.

Isn't this just a variation of the "Don't Bluff Bad Players" mantra?

[patrick dicaprio]

coinflipping is usually the correct thing to do when you are short stacked so you take a 50% chance at doubling up. it certainly is better than folding with A9s.

Pat

[durron597]

So clearly you didn't have to have a better ace or a pocket pair to make that raise allin (since you did it with KQ!). He either 1) didn't think too much or 2) thought that you could have a lot of hands that he is ahead of (such as yours) to make that play). He was shooting for 1st not 3th, I don't see what your problem is.

[ddubois]

coinflipping is usually the correct thing to do when you are short stacked so you take a 50% chance at doubling up. it certainly is better than folding with A9s.

Maybe so, but he wasn't the short stack! He had a sizeable chip lead over the 4th place player. His play should have been even tighter than usual in that situation. Why tangle with the only guy who can bust you with a marginal hand?

I suppose this is a version of don't bluff bad players, except for the fact that I wasn't bluffing - I thought I had a legitimate hand worth defending against a steal. Was I wrong? Is KQs not a legitiamte hand against a steal?

So clearly you didn't have to have a better ace or a pocket pair to make that raise allin

I never said that I needed to have a better ace or a pocket pair - I said I would make this play with the top 15% of hands, to which he is a 1:1.3 dog.

thought that you could have a lot of hands that he is ahead of

This is bad rationale for the reasons I described. Does "often I'll be 30:70, sometimes I'll be 50:50, and rarely I'll be 60:40" sound like a great deal to you?

[McMelchior]

You control more than 50% of the chips in the tourney. The blinds are very low.

You cannot expect to be a favorite should you be called when you push with KQs. Risking more than a third of your stack hoping to increase it by a mere 5% is very bad play.

Your low stacked opponents have every reason to gamble in that situation - you have absolutely none.

With a big stack and low blinds your strategy is to sit it out while your desperate opponents finish each other off, only moving with absolutely dominating hands.

I would definitely call for 5% of my stack in your situation with KQs, but if I didn't hit the flop or thought I could bully my opponent out (and I would be very careful, considering the second largest stack bet into me, the chip leader preflop), I would let it go without any regrets.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[greytedeals]

players don't tend to notice table image in the 20+2 games so much.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
With a big stack and low blinds your strategy is to sit it out while your desperate opponents finish each other off, only moving with absolutely dominating hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am certain I have read on these boards the correct strategy for the big stack on the bubble is to push around the medium stacks (who are afraid of busting out), and when reasonable avoid tangling with the shortstack (who's demise everyone else is waiting for). So what you are saying seems incongruent with what I have been advised by strassa et all in the past. Perhaps the key distinguishing phrase in your reply is "low blinds"?

[Algasm]

Double D's,
First off McMelchior makes a great point about this hand. It's still just level 3 and it's for only 5% increase in your stack. And secondly doesn't it seem wrong that you win 3500 in chips outplaying people after the flop and then give 66% of it back without the opportunity to see a flop first?
I went through a similar thing a month ago where I had read all these posts about how to play on the bubble from the gurus of the game. But their game is the $200+15. After my strassification I went 2 for 24 at the $30s. I was getting involved in all sorts of 60-40s 70-30s and couldn't seem to win any of them (I was dominated a few times too). And I hated these players and thought they sucked because they called all in with q-10s and we had similar stacks of 1000 with the blinds at 50-100.
I guess the point is that you might have more success continuing to outplay these players postflop especially if you aren't sure they will fold and you trust yourself. Also after 30 hands they have probably played several and you have a decent line on their betting patterns.
I could be wrong though but my results picked back up when I stopped the all in barrage unless severly short stacked.
My 2 cents.

[Losing all]

I think "low stakes" is the more important point. Many of the solid strategies the top dog's advise here just don't work well in the 10-30's. Let me give you an example, I just finished 2 games not 15 minutes ago. Both games I was 4th out of 4 with little chance of money. Result^ 2 thirds. Good play? No, Lucky catch? No, 2 bad bluffs followed by 2 even worse calls? Yes. Not one of these 4 players had any busines making the play they did with me about to blind out. These fools look down and see KT sooted and just can't fold it. Money be dammed

[serling]

I feel for ya, dd... but I think as the chip leader I would've just called to check out the flop. His open raise makes me think a big Ace or pair. I see the flop with an Ace and can easily fold. With a K or Q or two diamonds, I'm probably pushing. Without any of that, I'm getting ready to muck.

serling

[BigJer]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he thinks I'll be as crazy as top 25% (roughly any ace, any pair, any suited broadway), he's still only a coin flip. Now, I see this all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you see it "all the time" then you should exploit it. This is similar to the common thread: I hate playing at low $$$ tables because....

The advice is always the same: make them pay for their bad play. Over time you'll win out over the bad play. No?

However, in this case the play was not that bad. If he had J3off, called your 1150 and paired the 3 on the turn, then I would agree.

[ddubois]

If you see it "all the time" then you should exploit it.

I do want my opponents to make mistakes, yes. But mistakes that expose me to the maximum number of coin flips are not good for me.

However, in this case the play was not that bad.

Apaprently we can go around this all day. I outlined with what I thought was very good rationale for why it was a bad play. He:
1) called with no fold equity
2) as a 1:1.3 dog to my range of hands
3) putting his entire stack at risk
4) on the bubble with a shorter stack still left.
If I made this play and posted it, I should hope people would give me advice pointing out exactly these points and tell me that a call would be at best marginal.

[Algasm]

I think we can all agree that this was a bad play on his part for the reasons that you mentioned but if it's happening all the time and it is, then you have to adjust your strategy for their poor play. Posting here to vent your frustration and not changing your playing style to accommodate for their apparent need to gamble isn't going to increase your ROI and it's not going to make them fold this next time.
They aren't going to change so you have to. Would you preferred your opponents played perfect poker and didn't love to gamble? Probably not. I know it sucks that they make mistakes but they aren't going to change until you change limits.

[stupidsucker]

I dont think its a terrible play. Personaly I wait till the blinds are larger to make plays like this, but the A9s should NOT have called this.

In the future I would wait till the blinds are worth the steal for more then one reason. First off the obvious has been mentioned that you are only gaining 5%. Dont forget that you want to maintain your tight image to steal more blinds when they hit 100-200.

I fold the KQs preflop most of the time here. I hate KQ. I understand your push, and again I say that A9s should not call this.

[bustedflush]

...and changing limits is no guarantee either. There're rich wackos online too. Remember, poker is about odds, so as long as you're playing consistently and correctly, you will get the money.

[poboy]

As bad as his play was, I think yours was even worse. You bet T1150 to win T175 with a marginal hand. Though you didn't say, I'm going to assume he's been playing loosely the entire game, this makes it too likely he's going to call. If you look at it from his point of view, your large re-raise just looks like a resteal attempt. So he probably thinks he's ahead. I think in this situation(being chipleader) I just call and hope the flop hits me. You took a gamble and lost, a gamble you didn't even need to take. Yes your right he shouldn't have called, but he did and so will thousands more like him. Rule #1 in tournies is avoid large confrontations unless you can be certain you have much the best of it. You can't figure you have much the best of it with KQ, can you?